🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Ochai is turning into a late x-mas gift for all of us - and this team was really due for some good fortune.
But he is still raw, and my guess is we will have him for at least two more seasons

Well, as has been said in so many ways here over the years, we have had it very good as KU fans. Our team wins way more than they lose, and as a top tier D1 program, we stay up there because of the nature of the beast that is college basketball. ( Hall of fame coach, ability to recruit, 1st class facilities, unparalleled tradition of excellence, and total commitment from the school to keep it that way) The rich stay rich. We were ranked #1 by many at start of season, a familiar spot.

Now it’s time to man up and fan up. Things now aren’t where we are used to. From the fbi investigations to Vick leaving, this season has been flat out tough on us . Too many lost guys (including Jaybate who would be trying to rally us right now with another crazy-brilliant novella-post to make us see things in a new light)

We have been temporarily kicked out of the pent house and are now down on the streets fighting like all the rest. And many other rival fans in the B12 and elsewhere are gloating about our troubles, and may be licking their chops. I fear (hopefully not too many ) at least a few more court storming in rival gyms coming up.

Look at it this way..it’s a good time to be a fan. !!!

Any other info??
Can’t seem to find any news - (I’m not a facebooker)

is Garrett still out ?

4 year guy... !!! music to my ears... (you can be damn sure I will be watching his senior night). I would say working on free throws would pay more immediate dividends. But yes being a better basic shooter would also help over time.

as for going “pro”, Doesnt seem nba material to me. But doesn’t mean he can make a very nice living in other overseas leagues.

The NBA is a great great job, but it’s a job.

Playing for KU – priceless. Devonte just OOZES team pride and KU love from every pore. Kinda sounds like he wished he had a few more years eligibility

@approxinfinity ha- actually I thought that THAT was what self was screaming about - either he thought that there were five fouls on the Iowa State guy, or that KU should target that guy to draw his 5th ..

no heart attacks please Bill - it’s only a game 😬

Jamari is kicking butt with the Hiroshima dragonflies.. think he leads team (or 2nd ) in scoring and rebounds... looks like he has found a good niche for his skill set as taught to him by self and the staff at KU. Plus hopefully banking enough $$ to live comfortably for some time to come. (Granted, Japanese league teams can only have 3 non native players on a team, and only 2 on the floor at the same time. )
link text ↗

Ok thanks ... guess he thought the guys wouldn’t hear him :)

Speaking of passion.. At around 5 minutes left in the game last night Self was screaming “five!! Five !! FIIIIVEE!!!, “ While holding out his spread hand. I mean really screaming.. red faced and some spittle as well... ( check the espn replay ) not sure what that was about... and not sure I’ve ever seen him that cranked up. Wish I knew what he was referring to.

Woodrow said:

I do not see anyway they win all 4 games. If I had to guess right now I would say they will go 1-3. I just do not see this team winning on the road right now. They should be able to win at Texas, but nothing they have shown this year suggest they will.

I am not sure they have the fortitude to win in Manhattan. Without a Senior leader that environment could eat them up.

On the evident of the last 5 or 6 games, I would have to agree. our boys just not quite gelling right now. They have bursts, but then look bad right after. If Vick AND Lawson can both have explosive games then maybe that would carry us to 2 and 2 or 3 and 1, but 1 and 3 feels the most realistic.
No matter what happens, I’ll be happy with consistent Dedicated Defensive play for our team. That usually is the first sign of a team becoming a TEAM.

(Let’s hope I’m dead wrong!)

Well I can remember some posters here making the argument that one of Self’s biggest (perceived) failings is he “plays favorites” to win every game in place of giving the (percieved) more “talented” freshmen valuable minutes to learn thru growing pains and mistakes, which then comes to supposedly hurt the team come March.

I don’t have stats here to put this in real context, but it sure feels like Grimes has been given more than ample playing time. Don’t think this is Selfs fault this time.

Is it me, Or does Grimes just not look that althetic?.. (I never looked at his high school hilites for any context)
To me he looks more or less average athletically at best, a tad slow, and sluggish more than explosive. Selden ( oft compared to Grimes) as we remember struggled his first year, but to me he always showed athleticism. The potential seemed there.

@Kcmatt7
Yep - good point, it is a quite old thread which has been added to. I guess I’m a bit too thin-skinned when it comes to Garrett. I love the guy despite his shortcomings.

Now I gotta try to warm up to Grimes and not be biased :) So far just disappointed in him.

Ok - so a hall of fame coach and professional college b-ball analysts have been extolling Garrett for weeks for obvious reasons. I don’t know a ton about the finer points of the game, but instinctively from game 1 of this season I never liked it when Garret was on the bench... I always felt better when he was in game. recently Self said the same thing.

coach has asked him to work on scoring more in addition to all the other things he does. And he is scoring more, despite the fact that he isn’t a natural scorer.

I get that people here will all have differing opinions on guys- it’s the essential nature of fan sites. ( I didnt like Grimes early on for the simple reason that he was considered a OAD - no other rational reason really. Just a visceral dislike. I am trying very hard to warm up to him. If he somehow turns his season around I will get on the Grimes bandwagon)

But never really understood the knocks by some here on Garrett. It felt wrong and biased (on his scoring as the most important metric ) and misguided.

Well now he’s scoring. And playing D. And boxing out. And assisting. And positioning himself on the court just like the coaches want him to.

Give the guy a break already

@drgnslayr

“It still looks like just a bunch of guys that are thrown together to play a game.”

Couldn’t have said it better myself... we can only hope they find that team cohesion. At least around March :)

@mayjay
True. Let’s all hope he gets into a groove when it counts and cuts down on the turnovers.

Vick. That is the guy that has to figure out how to be the man. Simple. Lawson apparently doesn’t have the personality ... kind of perry Ellis like. Grimes may get some better, but what we see is what we will get til next season. Dotson, as astutely pointed out in this thread, is a freshman- not quite ready to be the man. Garrett really should not have to be the man, his game is not built for that, but he is an incredibly valued player. Self said he is not really comfortable unless Garrett is in there, and frankly I have felt the same way all season. He is a natural team leader in many ways, but not a shooter. He direct teammates on D, assists, and puts us in a good position, but he should not be placed in a position to win the game by scoring.
It’s Vick. (Or Lawson if Vick is covered too closely.) He has to figure out how to be the guy game in and game out, , and soon.

And if the G__damned NCAA could get off their A__s and clear de Sousa, we may just be a sneaky dangerous team.

Well THIS will get interesting...

and yes we do seem to have been snake-bit with our big men the past few years.
Lawson is now officially the man, Grimes and Vick and Dotson being our only viable scorers. Mitch and McCormack please step up.

Look at it this way... if somehow we DO win the conference, it will be flat out stupendous... !

(I’m trying hard to stay upbeat here ... what else can I do?)

Its a Nice campus...
My eldest daughter is a senior there studying chem and bio-engineering. Very affordable. High academic quality, Very friendly overall atmosphere from the staff to the student body, but of course a definite hate of Jayhawk basketball which is understandable. They tried VERY hard to remain cordial when I wore my Jayhawks t shirt to orientation 3 years ago. I couldn’t help it 😁

We are trying to steer our 11th grader to KU though :)

Garret the problem ?? Yikes
Not even close. He’s keeping us in games with all the other things he does.
The main problem is 1) grimes apparently can’t figure out D1 ball. 2) most of the team had yet to learn how to play consistent D and communicate on switches and learn to box out. One of the most inconsistent defenders is Vick. D Lawson also is slow on defense.
Good thing they can score.
Team needs to get better on fast breaks and D

Merry Christmas !

A Shoe post on buckets? Where’s Jaybate????

No, seriously.... where’s jaybate ?

Agreed. Absolute clinic defensively in the last few games, and I’ve been bitching for years on how when we often get out-rebounded simply because our guys cannot or will not box out. Garrett put on yet another clinic on boxing out Saturday.. he even pushed one guy almost into the under-basket seats.

From KU sports dot com :

“Like Lawson, Self marveled at Garrett’s four steals after the victory, saying, “Everybody will talk about those three (Dotson, Lawson and Vick), but we (also) have Marcus Garrett. The way our guys competed defensively all day was tremendous.”

And:
“Inserted into the starting lineup because of the ankle injury to starting center Udoka Azubuike, Garrett’s ability to play four positions and be this team’s lock-down defender has endeared him to his head coach, who places extreme value on versatility and toughness.

“He’s a good player,” Self said of Garrett. “If he had a consistent (shooting) stroke, he would be our best player; I mean, all-around player. He can play and he’s got fast hands and he’s tough and does all the right things.”

Like all of us, Self would absolutely love for Garrett to get better at being a consistent scorer. But the key line here is “HE DOES ALL THE RIGHT THINGS”. Which means defense, good switching on d, boxing out, rebounding, court positioning, passing, running set plays, and trying to be aggressive offensively when the opportunity presents itself. Which is why he will continue to get playing time to the consternation of some people here who feel that our “higher ceiling” freshmen are not getting enough court time at this point.

On the plus side, Grimes must be getting the message because he is really putting effort into his defense, and looks to be not worrying so much about trying to force shots.
And, As some here have noted, he does remind one a bit of Selden, who stuck around for three years :)

Speaking of re-watching the game, Garrett put on an absolute CLINIC defensively, and his boxing out should be shown to any team or player on how it’s done.... spectacular.

How about free state brewery... good food

Let’s hope we get Dotson for 3 seasons at least.. we have been spoiled lately with frank and Devonte :)

Non-sequiter here, but where is Jaybate?

Hmmmm
6 games in, and I’m really trying to see why grimes is nba level.
And -if he is so athletically gifted, why can’t he play in-your-face defense? That would keep him on the floor . Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t defense just hustle, footwork, and hard work?
If garret is so much worse than grimes in “potential” (whatever the hell that means) why can he play defense?

And where was mr NBA last nite? grimes? We Can’t blame Self wanting to play his fave Garrett last nite...
Dotson right now is playing up to his high school hype. Last nites game was a preview of tough conference- tourney games. The Vols are as good as advertised.

Also, I thought the announcers were dead on about Lawson. Maybe not NBA- level athleticism, but definitely basketball IQ.
I’m not making any specific comparisons, but Larry bird was also labeled with with no NBA -level athleticism either.

And was it me, or did our team look pretty tough last nite?

@BShark
All good points. In an ideal world you would get guys who do it all, or figure out the best way to play your glue role-play guys to compliment and help develop the scorers. Perhaps Self needs, as you HEM have stated, to learn to bite the bullet and play the best perceived talent guys more early on. Not sure Self would agree with you though.

Part of the issue for me is i am admittedly biased, and perhaps less coldly rational about the situation. I, like self, am perhaps TOO fond of our past role-player types- I loved releford, loved Lucas, and loved traylor. My current fave Is Garrett, and also mitch. But I’m Just a fan who likes who I like...
And I’m conversely probably unreasonably biased against the OAD guys we get from time to time, although I loved Jackson’s effort. (I hope he can find his way in the pros ... currently not going as we all thought for him. A guy clearly who came with NBA level talent. )

Is Dotson considered a 4-year guy? God I hope so...
What fun it was to have Frank and Devonte for their 4 years. And both currently in the Big Show despite not being perceived as NBA- level guys early on.

@HighEliteMajor
Just closely read your lengthy post. I could be missing something here, but the essential conceit, a point you have made consistently over the years, is that guys like Lucas, Taylor, M-star and potentially Garrett, are bad because THEY CANT SCORE, or at least can’t score as much as some other players, thus shouldn’t see as much playing time as other higher potential players who are better scorers. In Other words, can’t score = bad player, and can’t score = losing in the ncaa tourney.
I’m not embarrassed to admit my lack of knowledge of What KU players in the past would be considered an all around player- scoring, defense, rebounding, passing, boxing out, etc. I’m sure there are plenty that we’ve had, but not everybody can usually do all things.

A few years back, you brought up the heated and long debated subject of Jamari as an example of a guy who shouldn’t be playing as much because he wasn’t a scoring threat, and thus was a lower talent guy.
I thought then that Self surely must be playing him for a reason other than that he was a coach favorite, so I started the practice of re-watching games and really focusing on just one player- in that case Jamari, but also other players. I learned a lot about the subtleties of hoops at the college level, and came to the realization that what self values (and I’m sure other good coaches) is guys who play good overall D, box out, pass, set picks, help teammates get open, and know what their role is in a team system. In other words, scoring IS ONLY ONE FACET, not the most important ones apparently at least for certain guys. Every good team does need some primary scorers.. Perry Ellis comes to mind, and often his D was awful as well as some other parts of his game. You can’t have a whole team of role players at the top tier of D1, but again Self CLEARLY values guys like Lucas, Traylor, and Garret for what they can do, and feels that a really good OVERALL team HAS to have a certain amount of guys like that.

So yes I do agree that self need to cultivate our NBA-talent level guy Grimes, ride him, play him thru the bad stretches because we will need him for sure. Particularly his ability to score. But self will always value the role guys because he is convinced of their value despite their scoring liabilities, and is convinced that you WIN with a mix of those guys.

(Also, guys who are “NBA” level in talent are not necessarily the best fit for certain college systems.
The NBA does put a very high priority on scorers, not necessarily defensive guys, which is why you see guys who just OK in college really shine in the NBA, and even more, guys with supposed NBA talent who cant cut it.)

Not sure this is a good example of the subject matter here, But last year I was at the east regional game between West Virginia and Villanova. Huggie of course has an ENTIRE program built around defense- first selfless team guys, but not necessarily guys who are natural scorers first.
They harassed Villanova endlessly, caused turnovers like they’re built to do, and forged a lead late in the game. But Villanova had guys who could step it up when it mattered and hit huge buckets with guys draped all over them, Yes NBA level guys, to regain the lead...
West Virginia couldn’t answer. They simply didn’t have the scorers who could step up in crunch time, and sometimes basketball comes down to scoring ability above all else.

@BShark
Good point about people not close-guarding Garrett, Which is all the more reason for him to do everything in his power to make teams pay for slacking off him.
At the very least, since he is clearly coached to drive, he needs to Work on getting well above 50% from the free throw line.
Work on his threes, and free throws, and with his defensive skills, he will be a net positive on the floor.

Just re-watched the game, paying special attention to grimes and Garrett.

First of all, the game plan was to be aggressive and drive the ball especially because Marquette’s defensive plan was to guard close outside. Thus the big free throw disparity in Our favor. The guy in my opinion who had the most “forced” drives was Lawson, followed by Garrett. These were not particularly successful in the first half, but Lawson’s second half drives were better. He has more skill to finish than Garrett anyway, but the plan was to drive past the defenders who were In their faces outside.

Grimes seemed lost at times, the game most likely being too fast for his current ability to adjust on defense. He was slow to fight thru screens, and slow to switch. A few open threes by Marquette was essentially on him. He never really got comfortable enough to find good spots for shooting.. he just seemed a step behind a lot of times on both ends of the court. He did have some good moments though, and his dive for ball (which almost cause Moore a grievous injury) was the kind of play that self loves to see.

Garrett overall played more solidly. He fought thru screens better, switched on cue, boxed out well, read well when to move in for rebounding, and stayed in position on his man defensively. On offense he moved well away from the ball (which is how the coaches draw it up in practice), and took the open three when it was handed to him (again doing exactly what the coaches trained him to do)
He missed 2 or 3, but He hit one in the second half which was a key one to extend our lead and keep the momentum going. Twice, When Marquette double-teamed Lawson, he saw the open space and quickly moved under the basket and Lawson found him for the easy bucket. Again, exactly what he was coached to do in practice. He did make some mistakes, particularly in an inbounds play where he let his man get by him for a layup.

Grimes is of course a better potential more skilled player than Garrett. The question is, against a good team like Marquette early in the season, does self go with the guys playing better at that point? The point is to win, right? This subject of course has been brought up many times here over the years.. Should self play the inexperienced high-ceiling guys more and let them work thru their mistakes to get more experience in the long run that will pay off later in the season? Or play the guys he thinks gives him the best chance to win they particular day?

Personally, if Grimes is a classic OAD, I can only hope he makes an impact this season, and Doesn’t follow the usual OAD path of looking good early, and then streaky inconsistent play to outright disappearing when the going gets tough. Newman was an exception (and I’m technically classifying him as a OAD). Maybe the answer is to ride grimes thru the good and the bad. And he could have gone to a different program where he would have been on the floor all the time, but he chose Kansas and Self. So he had to know the deal.

MG is clearly being told by the staff to drive- thats why he is doing it. If he was not doing what the coaches wanted, he would be benched. Plain and simple.
His ability to finish is not particularly good right now, but He is also playing defense and rebounding, doing his part in a particular offense set, and moving well without the ball, so that’s why he’s getting the minutes.

Here’s a useful tip. Re-watch games, and just key in one one KU player, pick any one. If you pick Garrett, chances are you will see things you missed before.

And - because I’ve forgotten this before, I don’t think CBS has an app where you can replay games which I often have to do because my schedule doesn’t allow me to see them live, (which is a great feature of ESPN app ) so I’ll be sure to remember to record those two CBS games. (it’s also fun to watch a game twice, to pick up on what certain KU players are doing away from the ball etc.)

@BShark
Thanks

These early season KU games including exhibition all pretty much used to be at least on espn 3 ... now, because apparently more people are dropping cable, Disney wants to try the pay-as-you-go model and target certain audiences and get some income. Thus espn +.
I think there are only like 5 early season games that will be on espn + for those of us outside the KC area

Thoughts ... given the lastest news, what’s a player worth ?

Let’s go with the supposition as put forth by a few people here (that I don’t doubt) that all players not just marquee nba-potential Guys who select a top tier program are getting some sort of incentive - is there a formula ? 5 -star ranked high school players or top 50 guys would get say a six figure under-the-table bribe ?
Guys 50 thru 100 another starting figure ?
Guys who are not in the top 250 don’t get cash but something else ?
Do the shoe cos have a working framework of numbers ? Do coaches indicate to a Gassnola type that they really want a certain guy, so don’t be stingy even though he’s 3 -star etc.

Does say a guy like Mitch lightfoot for example, because he was not highly ranked, and has always professed a desire to play his favorite program, not perceived by adidas as as a guy they need to “ incentivize”? Beyond the scholarship?
And how does a guy who didn’t get paid feel when he figured out some his teammates did ?

And the players families - at what point do they become aware of this system and who tells them ? When does a shoe Co rep decide to tell a family or a parent that perhaps there could be a “ reward” involved should their son pick a certain school ? That has to a a bit of a delicate dance early on.. but seems like plenty of families take the reins early and come up with their own demands and conditions rather than wait for the recruiter or shoCo guy to broach the subject.

How many of KU’s 4-year type players say in the last 20 years, guys who initially weren’t really looked at as nba potential but were the backbone of some of our great teams, were they all offered some sort of illegal payment ?

Just curious is all..

@BeddieKU23
Thanks - yes that I figured as much, and guess that wouldn’t change anything, it’s just all the great players we love were 3 - 4 year guys ... I personally don’t really care about any of our one-and-dones. all KU players may have been compensated, but the ones who stick around seem to grow really connected to the school in all the right ways, just like we are.

But yep they most likely were all incentivized in some not-kosher way to come here.

Still not sure how we proceed with adidas though

Here is my guess as to what happens next.
The lawyers convene with self and staff to determine if there is any hard evidence out there to prove self knew of payments. I for one can’t believe they would be so stupid as to leave any trail.
If lawyers think there is no proof, KU will issue a statement they they take this situation extremely seriously, and we may see self emphatically claim he or his staff had absolutely zero knowledge of adidas paying players to steer them here. Townsend also may have to publicly explain himself and also state that he never meant KU would actually come up with paying Zion. Good luck on that ( good news is that now EVERYONE thinks Nike ponyed up cash for Zion to go to Duke )

I agree on dumping adidas - very hard to see how we can continue this relationship now -
Regardless of our past good vibes with adidas, I think both parties should understand this is best to part ways.

The NCAA is obviously going to feel pressured to do something - rather that open Pandora’s box, they may make a token gesture of punishing some of the schools involved. I think some sort of punishment to KU would actually be a good thing in the long run. We need to take it and shut up, and get back to building back up a reputation as a top tier corruption- free beacon of basketball.

If anything I hope that the top one and dones
Go to Nike schools at least for a while .
F ‘em - Nike can pay them and they can burden some other program. I’ve never felt they are worth the troubke and we can win without them

The top programs in all of college sports have been aided and abetted this way for decades by whomever has an interest, from boosters to shoe companies. Self knows he is in this top tier arena, so he, like all the other coaches, essentially has to play by the “rules” to stay a top tier program. Adidas is in stiff competition with Nike, and the understanding is that they will find a way to deliver guys to their flagship schools like KU, while KU (like everybody else) looks the other way. Why did Preston’s mom freak out about Self and KU finding out?? Because she knew that would violate how the game is played, and her son would never play a minute -which is what happened.

There may be other schools and coaches where a family member could care less about knowledge of payments because they know the key people (coaches and assistants) are in on the payments. Not KU. KU is is DEFINITELY NOT “supposed” to know. But they do know... that’s how the rules of the recruitment game are.

schools can offer jobs and a variety of other permissible perks as listed by many on this thread, to steer players their way, and they tacitly let the shoe cos do the dirty work of direct cash payments.

Unless there is direct EVIDENCE, NOT Just innuendo and reading into contextual meaning, that links our program to illegal payments, we will be fine, Self will be fine, and we should all go back to rooting for our team.

When I was about 6, my brother told me how babies were made, that there was no Easter bunny or Santa Claus, and that Peter Pan was just a kid on a wire. I grew up, and still enjoy the holidays as well as other things, including basketball.

GOD how I wish the season were starting sooner... all this back and forth has me drooling with a bad case of basketball jones

Free throw summer camp!!

He’s a natural foul magnet... who will in the coming months dedicate many many hours on the stripe with a free throw coach.. 200 shots a day minimum...

“Malcolm Gladwell, in his 2008 best selling book Outliers: The Story of Success, makes the point crystal clear. Yes, there are free throw shooters who have more natural talent to begin with, however, the fact is that the really great elite free throw shooters work much, much harder than all the others.
​
The idea, that excellence at performing a complex task requires a minimum level of practice, surfaces again and again in studies of expertise. In fact, researchers have settled on what they believe is the magic number for true expertise: 10,000 hours.”

Is newman gone for sure?

We should be good next year regardless...
the tourney is a harsh mistress, and we got out played by a team that made three in tourney History
We got blitzed.. I was at the Boston garden last weekend and nova looked NOWHERE NEAR this good against WVU and TT.

Good luck Michigan... you’re going need it big time

Ouch
Damn
This is a beat down

@Buster-1926
And always remember to keep zipper open in case you need to count to 11

That’s what I must have remembered..? That curry was involved and I was petrified of him..

Now if we do win it all this year, Grayson’s In and out shot will defintely enter the the lore of great moments In KU B-ball history.

@mayjay
Really ? Thanks for the clarification! That’s why this site is awesome..
I do remember it being a real nail biter though

@joeloveshawks

Can’t argue with you there :)

And yes how could I forget the Villanova game.. Wayne’s shot was uncontested.. I though for sure it was going in. But their guards drained big time key shots late and we didn’t. Season over. Were they a better team than us? No. But They were better than us at the end of the game.

And yes indeed The ball bounces in crazy ways in the tourney... in 2008, Stephen curry with Davidson misses a three at the buzzer and we survive. (And I hear he’s a pretty good outside shooter. ) Then Derrick rose misses some key free throws.. was it 3 of them? which keeps us In Reach of a last second trey that does go in.
The margin of victory and thus history is SLIM

“WE ARE LUCKY IT MISSED BECAUSE IF HE MADE IT WE"D BE SEEING THAT SHOT REPLAYED BY CBS AND ESPN FOR THE NEXT MILLENIUM.”

Funny - time slowed down as that ball rolled around on the rim - felt like 10 minutes - I was holding my breath and a small voice in my head said “you will have to wake up every morning for the next 8 months with the image of Grayson #%~*!> Allen jumping up and down with glee “

THANK the everloving hoop gods it rolled out .
Then I breathed and though “ hey - overtime ... just like 2008 - we are going to win this “