@BucknellJayhawk3 Right. White was a star in high school and was highly recruited. I would think it likely that he believes that he is good enough to earn significant playing time. Clearly, Self felt that way during pre-season.
We look at the situation and see that he was not able to beat out Greene this year and now Oubre is coming. Something will have to change for him to earn playing time. As a competitor, he could likely believe that he can make that happen.
Hawk8086
2456 posts
@AsadZ Do you live in Colorado?
Funny typo.
HEM,
Your logic is sound. Ideally, we would like to recruit the very best guys that will stay 2-4 years. There is logic in not taking the guys that will be, without much doubt, OAD. The problem is, Self, or any other coach will take the very best players they can. The mid majors would have OADs play for them in a heartbeat. Izzo went all in to get Parker. It takes a very brave coach to look at Andrew Wiggins and say...."I think I'll pass".
I understand your statement that the only way it would have been worth it is if we win a NC.
The fact is, what kept us from winning was Tharpe not developing as we thought and, of course, Joel getting hurt.
We could have, in fact, won with AW.
That's why Self would recruit a guy like him the next time and the time after that.
They recognize the issues with OADs....but talent wins and Self and everyone else will continue to elbow each other out of the way recruiting these guys unless / until the rule changes.
I've accepted that fact and I enjoyed AW's only year here.
What I don't want to become is Kentucky...or even Kentucky lite.
Would have to be a transfer.
Many have speculated about White. Something must be up.
@joeloveshawks I have the same question about the PG we are pursuing.....I posted this on the other thread.
They seem like lower ranked PGs pursued by non-power schools.
Like Tharpe?
The fact that Self is looking at PGs means he is not comfortable with what he's got. Tharpe we've discussed in detail on this site.
I find it interesting that he evidently is not comfortable going in to next season with Mason or CF at PG. I would have thought he might be comfortable that Mason could step up with CF and Tharpe as backups? Clearly he has no confidence that Tharpe will step up.
Also, don't some of the other guys seem like Tharpe, revisited? Lower ranked PGs pursued by non-power schools.
Tarik might be different....I don't know.
@KansasComet Well, it's never going to happen. The tournament is so popular, in part, because so many teams have a chance to be the giant slayer.
I don't think many teams with a .500 record have ever done very much damage.
In theory, the team that has a good season is rewarded with a high seed. This gives them an advantage, which, often, is offset by the fact that the highly seeded team is the one with all of the pressure on them. The underdog often succeeds because they have nothing to lose....they play free and easy. The higher seed then plays tight.
@KansasComet I mentioned before that I thought in our NCAA early round losses that our teams have played "tight". Hesitant, tense, however you want to describe it. seemed like I was the only one that felt that way.
Don't forget about recruiting. You have to have good players to win. I have always read that Self's greatest strengths are his people skills.....making the recruits, and their families believe that KU is the right place and he is the right coach for them.
I know some of us may think that because we are Kansas, that players will automatically come here.....to an extent yes.....but don't underestimate Self's recruiting skills.
In that sense, especially this year, he has been somewhat of a victim of his own strength......expectations were so high because of this freshmen class. And as it turned out, the best of the lot did not play during the short period of time when the success of a team is (apparently ! ) judged by many people.
@MoonwalkMafia You can't compare Greene, CF, and AWIII to Kentucky's talent...it's not even close.
They have as much talent, although young talent, as has been assembled in quite some time.
Blue pill. But...we are a top 5 program. And I am not delusional.
If UConn wins.....yes that adds to the NC total.
But are they the best team in the country?
I think not.
They will be the best team in a 3 week period.
The season lasts 5 months.
Yes, other programs are better because of regular season success and NCs combined....but we are still a top 5 program.
@Crimsonorblue22 I think you are right. As I think about it that 3 man rotation would be a little undersized....we would need for Lucas to take a pretty big step forward or Mickelson to be effective ....both uncertainties at this point.
@HighEliteMajor I would rather have him be the 4th big guy....which means that we would get Turner....clearly preferable.
He would need to improve for me to be comfortable with him as the #3 big guy and for us to challenge for a NC. I think he can improve his offense (and defensive) skills enough to make me comfortable......and I don't think it would take leaps and bounds. The biggest issue I see is that we don't know, really, what Alexander is going to bring. If he is like most freshmen....there is a good chance he is going to struggle with foul trouble....meaning we may have to lean on the #3 guy...Traylor.
That's why I want Turner.
@drgnslayr You make a good point about Traylor's speed. I remember seeing one play (I think on a fast break) where I couldn't see the number and I thought I was seeing Selden (because of the speed he was getting down court) when it was actually Traylor. As you say........great for a 4.
@JRyman Despite the delay, I don't see how he stays.
Why shouldn't he take his time?
The only reason he should hurry is for our team's benefit....assuming that is a major influence on Turner's decision.....which would appear to be the case.
But I think there is time for Joel to take all the time he needs and for Turner to make his decision.
@JayHawkFanToo I am a big Jamari fan also, but I don't have the high hopes that he will progress as you say. I think he is a good energy guy off the bench. I wouldn't want to count on him for major production. He wasn't as nearly as productive in high school as TRob was so he is starting from a lower level.
I hope you are right, though!
A lot of people talk about Perry playing the 3, but I don't see it. I don't think he is quick enough to guard on the perimeter. Maybe against bigger lineups......don't know. I think he remains what he is.... a good scorer, weak defender....at the 4.....although hopefully he continues to improve in both areas.
@HighEliteMajor .So what is your take on why Tharpe has not worked out to date? I understand the ranking thing, but he is supposed to be a pure PG right?
He should be able to do an adequate job.
I'm at a loss.
@nuleafjhawk I agree. I hate to see Kentucky (and Cal) go the the F4 again with mostly freshmen.
The only good thing is.......Michigan got a taste of their own medicine.
@VailHawk I am not an NBA fan, so there are probably better people to comment than me, but I'll throw this out.
I think they like the one year because it advertises their future starts for one year only. They get enough information on the potential future stars so they have fewer busts (like Kwame Brown), and they don't have to wait (unless the kid decides to stay).
Wouldn't they rather have Wiggins, Parker, Randle, etc. this fall rather than in 2015?
That is my take.
@JayHawkFanToo Well said!
@icthawkfan316 Agree 100%
@MoonwalkMafia I should have added. Even if Turner commits, either he or Cliff starts....they both don't start over Ellis.
@MoonwalkMafia Alexander, Ellis, Oubre / Greene, Selden, then Mason / CF/ Tharpe. If Turner commits, then there may be some debate about who starts.
I can't believe that we would think that Perry doesn't start.
Because he is weak defensively?
He is our best returning scorer.
Given Self's history of playing the experienced guy, it would be a major upset if Perry doesn't start.
I don't think he starts at the 3.
@Lulufulu85 All good questions. But I don't think Perry comes off the bench next year. He will continue to be one of our go to guys. Selden being the other.
I think that Mason has the makings of a really good defender.
HEM,
I notice that you posed the question (stirred the pot) and then, presumably, just sat back and watched everyone respond.
You remind me of Lardass in the moveie Stand by Me. The kid who stood there with his arms folded and watched the havoc that he caused.
I would like for him to give the guys a little more freedom to shoot the 3 early in the clock if they are open.
Many have pointed out that the players seem to fear the wrath of Self. I think that makes them hesitant and appear to play tentative.
Other teams seem to play freer than we do in the tournament which I think is part of the reason for some of our early exists.
The PG thing.....I think Self would like to work on that also.
I still love Tharpe despite the disappointing play....but remember he was a back up plan (and I feel bad saying that, but it is true)
@Wigs2 Well I wouldn't have wanted Harrison, because despite his talent, he has a reputation as being selfish. It appears he was part of the problem with Kentucky playing "selfish" in Calipari's words earlier this season.
Now, I'll admit they look like they could now win a NC.
I think Harrison may have had problems here.....he is awfully good though.
@HighEliteMajor No.
My logic is that with Joel, we had a chance to be special. Do I think we would have won the NC? Probably not, since the team overall did not develop as we had hoped.
Also, even without Shepherd we have a chance to win a NC in the next couple of years...depending on how things play out.
@KUSTEVE Agree!
@KUSTEVE I have never been a big believer in judging the strength of a conference based on how they do in the tournament. Example: Is Dayton one of the best 8 teams in the country?
Now, the Big 10 getting 3 of the final 8? That has to be significant.
Although, even if they only had 1 in the final 8 I would still have said the Big 10 was either the toughest or the 2nd toughest in the country.
@KUSTEVE Those are some compelling facts. I'll take the next 8 years just like those, please.
@HighEliteMajor HEM, your posts are always logical and rational....this one is no different. For what it is worth, and we all have our own opinions, I tend to agree with most of the things you say. I usually think....I couldn't have said it better.
But I have to disagree, only because you took it to such an extreme.
Yes, success in the tournament is way too much of a contributor as to how successful your program is. But that's the way it is.
You can't have success with one and no success without the other...in my opinion.
Your statement that you would trade all of the Conference championships for oneNC is extreme....but that is your opinion.
I would not come close to doing that.
I have always said I would rather experience 4 months of success than 3 weeks.
That being said, 10 conference championships without some success in the tournament does not make your program great. You do need to top it off with some post season success.
In my opinion, the 1 NC and 1 runner-up along with the 10 conf. championships make us a great program....but I admit that all of the flops in the post season put us on the edge of not making that cut.
If the next 10 years bring us say, 7 conf. championships, similar success in the regular season, 1 more NC, and 1 more runner up would you take that?
I would. Yes, I would like 2 NCs and a couple more final fours.
But I would take it and I think the continued success in the regular season would allow us to continue to be one of the power programs in the country.
@HighEliteMajor I didn't say we always took advantage of being lucky!
Only that often titles are won with the help of some luck.
@JayHawkFanToo I have made that point about being lucky many times in discussions. In 88 things really fell our way......Pitt getting beat, KSU beating Purdue,etc.
@jaybate 1.0 Is Wilbiken (sp?) long?
@MoonwalkMafia I feel the same pain that you do when we lose early in the tournament. I would not trade places with anyone else as I would rather have 4 1/2 months of success and win the Big 12 than 3 weeks of success in the tournament.
That is, as long as we can sprinkle in a NC or 2 and some final fours.
If we could have a 2nd 10 years like the first 10 of Self's tenure....I'd take it.
@approxinfinity Notice that Stanford did throw that zone at Dayton......they needed to guard Dayton's shooters.
Unless I am forgetting something that was common knowledge, we don't know exactly why he transferred, do we?
We were presuming it had something to do with attitude or being responsible.
If it were one of those things, why would we take him back?
If it were playing time, why would he come back?
@Lulufulu85 I think going now is a good business decision. That doesn't mean he is driven by money. He would be going with the percentages by taking the guaranteed money now.
I don't see Wayne playing the point. Probably not quick enough. He has the handle for a good 2, but not for a 1 IMO.
The Ellis at 3 debate continues.......but I don't see it. I don't think he can guard a 3 on the perimeter.
I don't think either one of those happen.
Well you asked HEM, but I'll throw in my 2 cents since that what we do here....
Embiid will want to stay, but if you are a top 3 pick, there is no reason to come back. Too much risk.
The general rule of thumb is if you are a lottery pick.....you go.
@HighEliteMajor I agree that Wayne will be our best player next season. He is the key (well, along with figuring out that PG thing) to how good we will be next year.
Curious why you say no Myles.
Is he leaning Texas?
@truehawk93 Agree 100% on your PG comments. I think Self believes that Mason can be the guy down the road, if not before.
I am only guessing that the reason we stopped recruiting Lyle is that it became a little clearer that Selden was staying.
@truehawk93 I'm not sure Selden is a PG....I think we all debated this prior to the season starting.
I don't think Lucas transfers. I think that he has a future at KU and I think that Self thinks the same thing.
I hope I am right.
@dylans I agree that next year's team, with more experience, will give us hopes of NC....if not in 15, maybe in 16.
I also agree that this team seemed a lot like the 05-06 team all season.
I was at the Bradley game and our guys were beaten at half time. They came out for the 2nd half with a defeated look on all of their faces. That lucky, near half court shot at the first half buzzer sure didn't help.
The difference between the 05-06 team is that all of those guys came back in 06 and 07 and we only lost Julian (and only kept Brandon because of the ACL) in 07 and 08.
That being said, I can see the core of Ellis, Greene, CF, Mason, Traylor, (probably not Selden as I think he will have a big year next year) and one or maybe both of Oubre and Alexander back in 15-16....now that sounds like a NC contender.
@nuleafjhawk I have pondered that a lot and in the end I would rather have 5 months of success than 3 weeks of success.
However, we need to have some level of success in the post season....the 08 NC and the 12 runner up balance out the early exists in my opinion.
Great news about Selden. He should be able to improve his draft status by coming back.
I think he is a key for us to be better next year. Even if Emiid leaves.. which I expect. We need Wayne's toughness and I think he will turn into a leader and more of a consistent scorer. We will have way more experience now and can work the 2 (or 3) talented freshmen in.
@Crimsonorblue22 Of course, you are exaggerating. I think the players look tentative and unsure way too often.
I should add that it appears that our freshmen, for the most part play very tentative...more so than freshmen on other teams. I have attributed that to the concept above of just asking them to "make plays".
@HighEliteMajor I agree that strategy was a big issue and was part of the reason we missed so many inside shots.
We saw the same thing when we played SDSU. Our players were intimidated and tentative. Our shorter (other than Embiid) big guys were trying to score over taller longer armed guys without success.
When it's tougher to go inside on a team you need to mix it up. The commentators were all over the attacking the middle of the zone concept.
HEM, I would like to hear your comments on 2 issues:
- Does Self leave too much up to the players and expect them to "make plays" without telling them how to do it. I say this based on history as well as the sideline reporters saying that Self kept telling AW and Perry to be aggressive....no mention of any strategy.
- The Elephant in the Room with our coach.....and I think he is great overall...don't get me wrong...... is how tight we play in the tournament.
I think that contributed to our loss just like all (or at least most) of our early tournament losses. I was at the Davidson game in 08 and we played tight as a drum in that game.....that's why it was so close. I recall that Curry had kind of an average shooting night.
Thoughts anyone?