@BShark Well now that the UDK has busted this FBI thing wide open, we will have to forfeit all games we won. 0-40 it is... I'd still like a tshirt of that though I think.
Kcmatt7
11050 posts
@BShark Exactly what I was thinking. This is one of those investigations that will literally never close because it is so massive that they can say it is just always ongoing and not have to bother with doing anything besides sending a letter to anyone who inquires.
I want someone to do this for each individual school now and see what comes back. It is just an online form on the FBI website. I may try to when I get home from work.
40-0. Conference teams suck this season and minus UK, our non-con is basically a joke as well... Then you have our roster. Our top 6 are the best in the country, of that I'm sure. If Garrett can play like he did abroad, make that top 7. If Mitch can indeed hit a corner 3 consistently, make that top 8. If Cunfliffe can shoot the trey at a 40% clip, make that top 9. And we know Bill doesn't rotate more than 9 once conference play starts.
@BShark I'm honestly embarrassed that they published it. Like embarrassed for them. And now the Journalism school as a whole. Must have started a new class, Fake News 101. Where we teach you how to take an official document that really means nothing, and spin it into a major conspiracy.
@RockkChalkk Stupid college kids trying to make a name for themselves. I hope that the adviser who oversees them at the very least told them the backlash that SHOULD come from publishing something that really has no merit.
This, if it was anything, was a small clue to a bigger story and shouldn't have ever been published on it's own. The had to decide whether they should publish this big nothingbuger now and get a few thousand reads or if they should follow this down into the rabbit hole and potentially get nothing. They took the easy way out. Just a poor, sad job done by the UDK.
How in the world did the UDK editors let that get published? It is a non story for right now. They got a general document back that basically said we don't have to give you anything right now. UDK students trying to get people using "Gotcha" journalism tactics by saying this stupid letter somehow contradicts what the school has been saying. So dumb. So so so dumb. This is damn near High School level journalism and we are supposed to be a top Journalism school in the country.
@kjayhawks Yes, recruiting is apart of the sport. Wouldn't his well above average winning percentage at a perennially terrible football program pre-Snyder lead one to believe that he does in fact recruit well? Recruiting to Manhattan, KS isn't quite the easiest thing to do. Hell, we are 2 and a half hours closer to a major airport and a major city and we STILL have a hell of a time recruiting players to KU.
And Briles is not even close man. He had a .627 at Baylor and your main argument is winning right now. Snyder still has a better record at KSU. And he is doing it in Manhattan freaking Kansas, man. Not Waco, TX.
I see it in really 3 categories of players in all sports.
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Motor Skills: How coordinated are you. E.I. Dribbling and shooting
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Athleticism: Jumping, running, lateral quickness, flexibility
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Build: Arm length, Weight, height.\
Takes all 3 to be amazing. Takes 2 to be good. Takes 1 to be able to play the game.
I couldn't be a pro athlete in Austria either. Beer is like $1 a pint... Good move on the whole Greece thing. I wonder how close to the water he'll be.
Yea not looking good for them. NCAA is getting a task force together that should start investigating next month.
kjayhawks said:
@Kcmatt7 I'm sorry but you have to have more on resume to be a top ten coach. By those standards an argument could be made that Art Briles is a top 10 coach because Baylor sucked before he was there and really same for Mangino here.
False equivalency. He has done what they did, for over 20 years. Without recruiting thugs or abusing players. Without losing the lockerroom. Without cheating. Without being anything but a boy scout.
And that is fine if you don't think he is a top 10 coach of all-time. You don't have to. But to make the argument that he even compares to Briles or Mangino in any way is a joke. It isn't even worth having a conversation if you aren't at least going to open your mind a little bit.
Is he top 25? Do you think he could have had a better winning percentage than he currently has if he were coaching at OU or UT instead of at KSU?
@jayballer54 Guy is the next generational type of player. Would benefit KU for years and years to come if we could land him.
@kjayhawks believe what you want without any context or logic.
KSU history w/o Snyder - .346
Snyder - .657
Go find me a coach who has coached that far above their programs history for an extended period of time.
Yea the way it sounds. Devon is meeting with both coaching staffs today to let them know his decision. I'm sure he will announce soon.
@BeddieKU23 Makes me like Langford even more.
@kjayhawks He inherited a worse situation than Mangino. And to expect him to be Snyder, a top 10 coach of all-time is asking a little bit much I think.
I guarantee that people did not think very highly of Mangino until the Orange bowl year. 25-35 going into that season. Which was his 6th season.
@bmensch1 Nobody had less than 6 losses in conference last season besides KU.
@kjayhawks a program like KU needs to have 5 year guys in the system though. And Beaty doesn't have that. He hasn't had a full cycle of development yet until his 5th year. 2 and 3 guys just aren't ready to play in their 3rd year. And it isn't fair to grade him on players still in the system that he didn't even recruit. A complete culture change takes a long time. Let's not pretend that he inherited a 5 win team that had any sort of talent on it.
If anything, you have to give him one more year and try to get these very good players he has somehow landed on campus and signed. And then, if you are going to fire him, you better hire the best available coach. A Chip Kelly for $8-10M a season guy. Otherwise, Beaty better get 5 years.
@BShark I'll 3rd that. WVU will be down. UT will be up, but by how much? OU will be up, but by how much? OSU lost their best player, down. Tech should be solid, but basically the same team as last season, slightly up (6-12 conference record). TCU same as last season unless someone takes a big step up. KSU will blow pretty hard it looks like. ISU solid, but I'm not scared of them without Hoiberg or their best two players. Baylor lost their best player and didn't even have that great of a season last year once conference play started. I mean, honestly, who is going to lose less than 6 games in conference play? We won last season by 4 full games. I expect us to probably do the same. Honestly, I expect this team to have no more than 1 loss in conference play this season providing we stay healthy the entire year. And I don't expect anyone to have less than 6 losses again this year. If I were an oddsmaker, I'd set the line at 4.5.
@BShark Can't lose guys like him. Perfect 4 year role guys (in state right?). Especially a kid like him with a lot more upside than probably most guys ranked in his same range.
@JayHawkFanToo Me either. Although if the Baylor game isn't at least close for 3 quarters, I'll probably be a little upset.
I want to see Yankees vs Houston so bad. So much scoring...
Fire Bowen first. I actually think Offensively this team has taken a major step up. Just schematically. But now we need to get a defensive coordinator who is actually good. I love that Bowen loves KU. But it is time for him to move on. He just isn't a good DC.
Now, I do agree that we have to wait. Even if the on field performance keeps sucking, you have to just let Beaty at least get us to a 3 or 4 win team. Which will happen eventually. At that point, the KU job would finally be showing enough promise that you could probably make a splashy hire or at least get a real up and comer to take the job. But let's not be the Browns. Continually firing a HC is not going to solve the problem. Consistency at the HC position is very important. Even if the guy there sucks, we need to ride him out for a little while longer. I still think that he is doing it the right way. And that Beaty could still be the guy. I just think he needs a couple of more years to get some playmakers on the field.
@AsadZ Doesn't look good. Will be a $10m hit to keep Minor vs. $1.25 to buy him out. And I'm sure that he will get some serious offers we can't match.
@KUSTEVE I didn't think of anything as padding stats last night. They genuinely were trying to win the game. Hell, if that catch is in the endzone and not the 1 yard line, there is still a chance for them to win. And, I felt that there should have been at least 2 seconds left on the clock after the last play. Enough time for a recovery and a hail mary...
@JayHawkFanToo Not really a great practice facility for the football team. They have to bus over the team when they use it.
Not to mention, we could probably use a second indoor practice facility for everyone. On a crappy day, you also have to squeeze the soccer, football, baseball, softball, cheerleading and Dance (maybe even track?) all in that building in one day. And you have to do it around each team's schedule because their players have classes scheduled a particular way so that they can practice at certain times. Kind of a logistical nightmare for everyone involved.
@Crimsonorblue22 We expected the D to be worse, right? Lost a ton in the Defensive Backfield.
@JayHawkFanToo I think the Big XII is actually up this year though. Kingsbury’s job eas on the line so he upped his game. TCU is significantly better. ISU is way better than anyone thought. Texas is strides better (favored over KSU this week). The conference as a whole is significantly better so I think we might be progressing, it is just hard to see when the entire conference is also doing the same.
@kjayhawks makes you think it isn't the QB that's the issue... No talent surrounding Bender. No Defense. Most drives have to go 75 yards. So our QB has to throw in a tight window and run 10-12 plays in order to get us a score almost every single time. We have to get a legit stud at either the RB or WR position. AND we have to beef up our O-Line so that we can give that stud room to run or time to get open.
Combine that with asking an average at best QB to be effective throwing the ball 30+ times is a recipe for disaster. This "Air Raid" really needs to turn into an option offense. Think Oregon instead of TCU. Tons of motions, jet sweeps, misdirection and PA passes. Especially while we only have small quick WRs and no real down field threat.
@JayHawkFanToo @jaybate-1-0 As an accountant who actually works for a 501 (C)3 University, the athletics department budget is probably a material department itself within the University. But, it is made up of tons of immaterial parts that would be a very easy place for "grey area" accounting. Think about it this way, a public school who charges has 30k students and has an income of about $20k per student has roughly $600m in revenue just from students. That doesn't include the millions in donations and other fees or Federal and State money that they receive. We are talking about an average public university having probably close to $750m in revenue when it is all said and done. For something to be "material" it would have to be a HUGE expense. Assuming that the Accounting department has solid controls in place, a material amount is probably something that is around 2% of the revenue that rolls through the university. So, roughly, something around $15m. That is where the grey area comes in. While Financial Aid from the government has VERY strict rules an is audited VERY closely, anything that isn't Federal Aid and isn't material is essentially glossed over in the audit process. So, in accounts that are under $15m, there is a lot of chances for things to be hidden under the table. Providing they aren't material to that specific account. So anything that is basically under $300k on the books isn't even looked at. Meaning as long as you keep shady transactions below $300k, they probably won't even get looked at. And even if it does, amounts that small are getting looked at by 1st year auditors who don't even know what they are looking for. As long as column B adds up to the amount it is supposed to, you probably won't even get a followup question.
@mayjay You're a very good referee.
@JayHawkFanToo @mayjay has explained the context of what I meant, perhaps better than I could myself. So I'll leave you with that explanation.
@mayjay Lol thanks. You interpreted correctly.
@HighEliteMajor If you looked at the cases I linked (I looked at yours, I would think you might have shown me the same courtesy), the NCAA was defrauded the opportunity to use amateur athletes. They also defrauded the universities for the same reason. Arguments that were won by the prosecution in both cases. And were argued that it cost them a monetary value due to internal investigations, meaning it was in fact mail/wire fraud.
Do I need to explain how the U.S. Government was defrauded? Tax evasion. Tax fraud. Mail/Wire Fraud. They very clearly created fake documents and didn't properly record these transactions that occurred.
The Bribery charges are a little tricky because it is typically for Public Officials. Definitions are weird in this case. But, when you look at the case as a whole, I think the bribery charges will stick because they committed fraud to conceal these bribes. Even if they can't get a conviction on these charges, they can present enough evidence to open the coaches up to a civil suit, as will the financial advisers and agents that players were steered to, as they were most definitely negligent. Evidence used in this case can be used in the Civil court case that is inevitable, so I think even if the DOJ thinks they can't win this charge they do have another motive. To put all the evidence out there so that the players affected can get justice in another form. (A scenario that a prosecutor might be reaching on charges, but is doing it with a good motive).
@HighEliteMajor The links, if they had a point, was a poorly made one. As I pointed out before, many of the cases were refiled... And convicted. Or the links didn't take me to a site I could even read the article. And, again, I do understand how the legal system works. You don't have to explain to me that cases get dismissed.
And it isn't a separate issue, the college basketball case is what we were talking about in the first place before you tried to "teach this young whipper snapper a lesson." And I don't think that ALL prosecutors have those motives. Like any job, power gets to some people's heads. But I do believe that the vast majority of them do in fact have good motives. Just like I believe with cops. And public servants. And 99% of people in the world. But I'm not ignorant. As much as you would like to believe.
I'm going to say this in all caps so maybe it sticks. I UNDERSTAND THAT SOME PROSECUTORS ARE BAD. I said it, am I still "horribly, horribly naive?" Now, can we get back to how you feel this is a legal stretch on the CBB case. I provided two cases in which basketball coaches, one AAU and another CBB, were arrested for similar acts. And convicted. If you don't want to discuss that, I see no point in continuing the discussion as I have already agreed that not every prosecutor is a perfect citizen.
@JayHawkFanToo You pulled one line completely out of context. If that is what we are going to do, no sense in having a conversation.
@HighEliteMajor You clearly didn't even comb through the articles you posted. Several of them had charges refiled and were convicted of, at the very least, a lesser crime.
Usually a case that is dismissed is simply dismissed on the charges filed. And prosecutors typically appeal the cases or refile on different criminal charges. As has happened with several of the cases you just linked...
Prosecutors don't file charges if they don't think they will get a conviction. It literally ruins their careers to swing and miss on convictions. So, clearly they don't miss very often.
But sure, I do operate on the assumption that when a charge is filed, there is USUALLY hard evidence. As there appears to be in the CBB case. I don't find that to be "misguided" though. Here is the thing, I love law, and I love research. I grew up a cops kid and I have personally known prosecutors and district attorneys. I know that these guys are smart. And I also know that they don't have the time to spend prosecuting people for things they don't think they will get a conviction on. I don't know what premise you operate on, but I feel as though perhaps yours might be more misguided than mine. I have plenty of personal experience which has helped me to form my opinion. I ask, what personal experience do you have? You linked a bunch of unrelated articles to make your point in general that cases get dismissed? Do you think I'm a child and don't understand anything that goes on in the legal process or that I don't know that cases get dismissed? I'm just curious as to where you are going with your points.
If you feel that there is shaky legal ground on the CBB case, please find precedence of similar cases being dismissed. Your first link is pretty good, other than it was clearly sloppy FBI work. Not necessarily that they weren't guilty of something illegal. The prosecutor didn't lose because he prosecuted a crime on shaky legal ground. He lost because the FBI caused themselves to lose credibility in the case when their own characters were brought into question. So, not the greatest support. Do you have any other precedence that says any of the CBB coaches, agents, financial advisers or shoe reps should have their cases dismissed?
I have one that says that the evidence they have is probably enough for a conviction.
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-8th-circuit/1161058.html ↗
Another
@HighEliteMajor Well the arresting of 10 men, for crimes that already have precedence set, seems like a pretty slam dunk case to me.
I don't care about generally. What I am saying is that 9/10 cases, someone gets convicted. And yes 95% of convictions are plea deals. So the odds that this goes to trial is irrelevant. How someone gets convicted is irrelevant. All that matters is that the odds of these men being convicted is very high.
And, corruption/bribery is 100% illegal in both business and government. Just look up the Honda scandal from 30 years ago. There is precedence set. This money was not a gift. If they can prove that this money was literally for steering players to certain advisers, the bribery charges are very, very real.
And that is ignoring that 100% of them committed fraud. All 10 men arrested committed fraud. So I realize you are trying to see this as shaky legal ground, from what I see not only do they have a 92% chance of being convicted they have a much higher chance than that because all of them committed one crime for sure. Add that to the fact that they only committed fraud in order to conceal what they were doing makes their case even stronger. You don't bring several charges each against 10 men without having hard evidence. Just doesn't happen. Has nothing to do with respect for law enforcement. It is basic math and common sense. If they weren't doing something wrong, why would they commit fraud?
So I wouldn't say they were charged on shaky legal ground. They have several charges against them, many of the charges very solid, one might be questionable based on how you interpret the federal funding issues. Either way, these men are going to be convicted.
@BShark Things look good... Idc who commits first, but Dotson or Zion need to do it already so they can convince the other one lol
@HighEliteMajor Once criminal charges have been filed at the federal level, the odds are not good. 92% of defendants are found guilty.
https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/usao/legacy/2014/09/22/13statrpt.pdf ↗ (pages 8 and 9)
@BShark I think you can get a good kicker off the street. Soccer players are all over the place. Kickers are not worth paying unless they can consistently hit 60 yarders in any scenario.
A punter though, not everywhere. And not one who can both flip field position AND pin you inside the 20 is rare. A Punter is very undervalued position.
@HighEliteMajor It's a fair point, but it could be an argument that it effects another Private organization financially. Essentially, one private organization is corrupting another. If I hired someone to intentionally screw over another organization, that would be corruption. Now I don't know that the NCAA is getting screwed, but it could be argued. I see what you are saying. I just think the Feds typically charge people when they know they are going to win. Especially something this public. You can't charge people on shaky legal grounds. That would look really, really bad. Not to mention, precedence is already set. There has been someone already sent to prison for this.
@Texas-Hawk-10 Not what I said. You didn't understand my post.
@Texas-Hawk-10 And why was KU never a realistic option? Did Zion ever say he wasn't interested in KU? Nobody knows what is going on behind closed doors. It has seemed very much like a normal recruitment so far. Most of the speculation has been tied to the package deal with him to UK. Duke and UK are also both recruiting other wings that would be used the same way as Zion will so why go there and potentially not be featured? Makes way more sense for Zion to go to the place where he will be THE man no matter what. And Bill has done a phenomenal job showcasing wings. Just like Wiggins, of course Adidas has made it clear they want to sign Zion and for him to go to an Adidas school. Doesn't mean money changed hands.
And, it isn't against NCAA rules. It is Adidas hiring an employee. And implicating to them they are more likely to get the job if they go to x schools. Adidas isn't literally paying them to go to the school. Adidas is paying them for future services. Very clear difference than being paid to go to x school.
@HighEliteMajor A promise is not a bribe. Both parties could still opt out at any point during the process. If telling someone their potential is illegal, any type of recruiting would be illegal.
The second money changes hands, the criminal act was comitted.
@Texas-Hawk-10 KU has been in his recruitment sense it started. By your theory of using articles with no sources then KU shouldn't recruit inside the top 50 ever because they all have a risk of taking money and being targeted by agents. There are plenty of articles that say that. And Adidas could steer Zion without paying him. They could simply be saying, here is your future endorsement deal if you go to an Adidas school. That's not illegal. To make assumptions with no facts is dumb right now. That author very clearly wrote that article to get clicks. No validity to it. I still expect Adidas to try to funnel kids to KU. Just to do it within the boundary of the laws in our country.
@3genhawk apparently not all of it.
@Texas-Hawk-10 it's only been published on one site so far.
Snoop, DJ Khalid or Ludacris would be amazing too. There is definitely talent out there that isn't As bad as Yachty.
I just wanna know who made Drake a U.K. Fan. That really is a game changer.