🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Glad you have recovered! Sounds like you've had a brush with covid or at least a scary relative.

You were wise to wear a mask in December. The early guidance was that they did no good. Of course, things are different, now.

I think a recent model that showed that if 90% would wear masks, the infection rate would drop dramatically (assuming there is safe distancing and no gatherings).

Totally agree that not all people are wearing masks. The people of this country who are not participating in this are doing the country harm. Ironically, many are doing so in the name of freedom.

I don't think we should abandon practices that are known to be effective just because there are some misguided people refusing to be responsible.

Racially insensitive:

• Biden: Occasionally makes comments that suggest he is racially insensitive
• Trump: Repeatedly makes insensitive and incendiary comments and voices support for racist groups.

Inappropriate sexual advances:
* Biden: Has been accused by one person
* Trump: Boasted about grabbing pu**y in an interview on live radio, numerous video and photographic evidence including his association with Jeffrey Epstein, not to mention numerous allegations from business women to prostitutes.

Call me crazy, but I'm going to go with Biden if we keep dredging up this kind of stuff about Biden.

There are plenty of other things that are not great about Biden. But we're talking many degrees of magnitude between these two humans. One is like a hand grenade and the other is like 2750 tons of ammonium nitrate.

@Marco

The data I'm looking at shows 162.4k deaths in the US. Yesterday there were an additional 1100 deaths.
here is my source: Domo Coronavirus tracker ↗

My concern is the latency between the number of cases and the deaths. The number of deaths is creeping up right now from a nadir in late june/early july. #of Deaths lag the # of cases curve by about a month or so.

Right now, the number of cases is starting to drop from the peak in mid-July. Even now, the number of cases is double the previous peak in early April.

Based on this, I would expect to see a surge in the number of deaths by the end of August to align with the surge in cases.

A couple of caveats: 1) In March and April, testing was much less available, so the number of cases recorded probably is a significant underrepresentation of the actual number of cases at that time. 2) Doctors have learned a lot since April and that should lead to more effective treatment that may reduce the death rate.

A reduction in the death rate sounds good. But I'm assuming that there will be more "recoveries" like the 42-year-old woman in Lawrence ↗ (a triathlete) who still has significant symptoms five months after her "recovery". Also, as, doctors extend the life of patients who eventually die, the shape of the death rate curve will change.

It is true, the infirm have a greater risk of death from this as do certain minorities and those with comorbidity. The fact is this: ANYONE, regardless of age, heritage or health can contract Covid and there is no understanding of why some people have a more serious case than others. And to be sure, we will learn a lot fast if we decide to engage in a social experiment that puts all the kids back in classrooms together in August. Just not sure what the cost of such an experiment will be.

I don't know how to put a value on 1 persons life, let alone 100k or 200k. The number of deaths today-- whether characterized as a lot or a few -- are the result of 6 months of occasionally-aggressive efforts to limit the spread. So, it's fair to say that if we stop those efforts, the infections and the deaths will increase. Will it double or triple or quadruple? I don't know. But instead of 1000 people dying a day, there will be many more.

People are being asked to do two simple things: 1) avoid crowds and practice safe distancing and 2) wear masks when they are in the presence of others (beyond their family 'bubble'). To me, that isn't too much to ask.

Sadly, there seems to be a slice of the population to which inconvenience is anathema and another slice of the population that is dismissive or in disbelief of the risks of the virus, largely because they have been blessed not to have first hand experience -- that is, they don't know someone who has become ill.

It is disturbing to me that some are so self-centered, short-sighted, and selfish.

Anyway, the economy is NOT "shut down". It is dampered.

Some people are working remotely. Those that cannot are finding ways to work safely. They just need ALL consumers to reciprocate with responsible behavior. If there were NO efforts to mitigate the virus, the economy would most certainly shut down because we would have a health catastrophe.

The effect of the current restrictions on businesses is lumpy -- some are near death, some are thriving and the majority are somewhere in between. I have a friend who owns a pizza business that says business is back to within 10% of what it was pre-pandemic. It is tenuous, and uncertain, but certainly not "shut down". That's in Santa Clara County California, where there are lots of restrictions.

TLDR:

My opinion: Controlling the spread of the virus is the fastest way to regain and sustain consumer confidence.

@Crimsonorblue22 said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

@FarmerJayhawk did you watch his video? He explained why he did it, I understand what you mean, but I also was trying to get why he did it that way. It had to do w/population being so small in the no mask counties and he was doing it per 100,000. 1/3 pop. 90 counties were unmasked, 2/3 pop masks, 15 counties. I wrote that down because I was confused. He also started graph about a week after mandate cause nothing shows up then.

I watched the video before I saw this thread with keen interest as it suggested compelling evidence that masks are effective. And when he explained that the blue line had a different scale than the red line and that the key was to focus on the trend lines, I let out a deep sigh. I get it, but he's got to know that approach can be interpreted as deceptive.

It's a bad graphic that opens him up to questions of objectivity... and undermines his message. Did they do that to make the "mask mandate" counties look better or was it to create a more compact graph or some other reason?

@FarmerJayhawk did it right. In his chart, the evidence is still compelling and accurate.

@Texas-Hawk-10

My 2 cents on this trope about the media:

"The Media" is an easy and popular target. Such a blanket statement suggests that there is a collective effort across all media that is akin to conspiracy theory. I don't think such a statement is productive or accurate.

Yes: there are some shi**y sites out there that are pushing agendas. On the other side of this teeter-totter are some government agencies which have been actively trying to downplay the severity to the point of manipulating information to deceive people. (See Georgia's charts about a month ago). Let's just call that lying.

Yes, the media has a conflict of interest because the business model rewards engagement, which is driven by content that is more sensational. And... ALSO... the individuals in government positions have conflict of interest to mollify and placate constituents, drive the economy and have harmony within their party.

We are all caught in the middle of an information battle.

What a person decides to believe should be done with prudence and analysis.

Scapegoating is the easy route. It's easier and more convenient to believe "the media" is to blame or "the liberals" are to blame or "the conservatives" are to blame or "the Chinese"... etc. etc... But that's a dangerous path to take.

The messy truth is we all face the difficult task of sort through a noisy information landscape to find the best approximation for the truth that we can from the high-quality news outlets that work hard to be fair and objective and the officials who are working to serve their constituents in good faith.

@kjayhawks

What's your source?

Here's what I found from the CDC:
Additionally, CDC estimated that 151,700-575,400 people worldwide died from (H1N1)pdm09 virus infection during the first year the virus circulated.**

**Estimated global mortality associated with the first 12 months of 2009 pandemic influenza A H1N1 virus circulation: a modelling study ↗70121-4/abstract)

So, the way I read this, the highest estimate of global deaths is 575k (not greater than 600k). And that estimate covers a 12 month period.

By contrast, COVID19 is around 700k in less than 12 months.

I, for one, am pulling for the Lincoln Project.

They seem to be the only conservatives left that are moral and true to a conservative philosophy.

When covid is over, we'll be left with a deficit that will take a century of sacrifice to recover. In other words, it will probably not happen without a revolution. The Jenga tower is being set up right before our very eyes... and the 'leaders' of this country have been taking out the blocks over the years, but this administration seems to be accelerating the block removal while making the top of the tower taller, heavier and blowing on it.

At the rate things are going, we'll be remembering April with quaint fondness in September.

Wish there was a poll to help understand if the folks refusing to wear masks also refuse to wear seatbelts (which only endangers themselves), smoke wherever they want, drink and drive, smoke and drink while pregnant, ignore warning labels on products, think the earth is flat, etc.

Beat Duke, get investigated.

A number of tough Duke losses in the last couple of years are currently in a position to be vacated by the NCAA due to investigations (specifically -- KU in the final four, Stephen F Austin, NCState, Louisville...)

What a coincidence!

@HighEliteMajor I think I've got the TLDR version (I actually read most of it.. great job outlining your perspective):

Justice isn't fair. To think that the allegations are about fairness is wrong. This is about holding a member accountable, which the NCAA is well-equipped to do.

Is that basically the idea?

FWIW: I live in the south bay and have heard nothing about Musaka. Now I don't watch prep that closely, so there could be a great talent in my backyard... but Aaron Gordon was impossible to miss when he was rising through high school. Haley Jones last year-- also impossible to miss.

By comparison, I first heard of Musaka here, on this board, despite the distinguishing features and close proximity.

Yeah, how do they deem the risk low or high without the tests... That's a weird recommendation.

Seems like with this the wiser choice would be to err on the side of caution until there is evidence that less caution is validated.

@FarmerJayhawk Yeah, the results of a study are only as good as the method :-) my memory of instrumental variable approach is fuzzy, so please share thoughts if you see something questionable... I'm assuming they implemented it properly.. but not sure if there are concerns with the employment of that method (and if there was a better alternative.)

https://bfi.uchicago.edu/wp-content/uploads/BFI_WP_202044.pdf ↗

New paper from Uchicgao economist on Hannity watchers having higher death rates than Tucker Carlson viewers. Two conservative voices with qualitatively different messages from early Feb - early March (where the messages converged) ...and different outcomes for the consumers.

If true, strong evidence that the decisions that people make are only as good as the information upon which those decisions are based.

This is NOT PEER REVIEWED, but appears to be dripping in rigor. 90 pages. I'm still slogging through it.

However bad that is, the hit to agriculture and stock farmers might be equal. A piece on PBS Newshour showed farmers dredging lettuce and beans because they can't get them to markets. Made me sick to see those crops being tilled.

Maybe he's working on playing through contact. He'll be required to go up against some brawn and, as I recall, he was usually at his best when he didn't have to go through contact. A 33+% 3-pt shot would also stretch the D in ways we haven't seen.. so that would be welcome!

yeah... they pay you $18/barrel to take the oil. That's a good deal for someone who has some latent capacity... Of course, it's crude, so it isn't like you could use it without a refinery... Still, not good if you're an oil baron.

I think the tricky thing is that people have to remember that whatever is happening today is a reflection of behaviors from 2 weeks ago.

That kind of latency is extraordinary in a world where cause and effect are often much tighter. Makes it hard to factor into our assessments.

heh.. yes.

Ugh: this suggests the virus is airborne... much more than the 6 foot.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016041202031254X ↗

I need to vet this publication... but looks legit at first glance.

Yeah, I heard moonshine kills the coronavirus!

(Note: All fiction. No malice.)

@jayballer73 I suspect that if you go back to the moment that you saw this and decided to share it, at least part of the reason why was that it seemed preposterous. Anything that seems to defy common sense deserves some critical thinking.

I don't think it is asking too much to be open to evidence when thinking about whether something is legit or not. If the site that publishes something has a disclaimer that says it is satire or not real, that seems like a good reason to question its legitimacy.

There are a LOT of sites out there doing this and lots of people are getting duped because they don't take a moment to explore a bit about where the info came from. I wish it wasn't this way, but it is now. The information ecosystem is polluted and we all have to be more careful about what we read, what we share and what conclusions we draw.

@FarmerJayhawk said in The democratic nominee:

Folks on both sides are increasingly unable to grapple with ideas

Astute. Grappling with ideas takes effort. Yet, it seems that we are in the midst of a 'convenience culture' that seeks to eschew effort wherever possible.

To be clear this isn’t just my opinion. I said at my campus liberals are generally more hostile to free speech than conservatives. This isn’t just anecdotes. No, it’s not the population as a whole, it’s UNC undergrads. But the patterns are disturbing nonetheless. https://fecdsurveyreport.web.unc.edu/files/2020/02/UNC-Free-Expression-Report.pdf ↗

What follows is conjecture -- no study to cite: I would expect to find a similar dynamic play out on a "conservative" campus. That is, there would be similar resistance to opposing perspectives just as there is on a "liberal" campus.

I don't think the unwillingness to hear challenging views is a "liberal" or "conservative" thing, but rather it's a human thing.

It's part of our defense mechanisms and it is amplified when surrounded by like-minded people: aka herd mentality, where an echo chamber effect can happen. (Note: social media platforms make it easy to amplify views that I agree with.) In this kind of setting, the majority view point can overwhelm/eclipse opposing viewpoints.

It can get hostile if a differing view tries to challenge that majority viewpoint. This means that moderates - who often could bring some balance - tend to stay quiet for fear of association and drawing the ire of the majority.

This board is a decent example as well. Most of us can find posters with whom we tend to agree and certain posters with whom we more often disagree. And if there becomes a prevailing or dominant view, then that group can put the opposing side on the defensive.

In order to cultivate an environment where a variety of viewpoints are welcome, I think two very important components are critical thinking and empathy. These are important for those who hold the majority viewpoint as well as the minority viewpoint.

This is what I have tried to do here and elsewhere. It's surprisingly unintuitive to do this in the moment, given how important it is for us to live harmoniously.

@mayjay said in The democratic nominee:

None of what anyone is raising is new. There have always been vicious smears in politics going back to the Republic in ancient Rome and no doubt beyond. Demagogery did not start with Trump. Defending a president by attacking past presidents did not start with viewers of Fox News. Intolerance of opposing views did not start with liberals OR conservatives. Stupid impeachments for political points started back in the 19th Century, but at least now we are averaging only one per century.

Every student of political rhetoric knows that Americans always think they live in a unique time. Unforeseen challenges, crazy ideas bandied about, doom of our Republic just over the horizon "if we do this..." OR "if we don't do that..."

Somehow, the country has survived. The worst schism led to civil war, but there were thousands of controversies and even violent flare ups over 250 years. Factionalism was known long before that and this is why the Constitution set up so many obstacles to defeat any attempt for a single faction to impose its will indefinitely.

But there is no defense against a particular faction, or politician, from obtaining or abusing power temporarily. It always depends on what the American people are willing to accept. A majority or strong plurality seems to accept the unacceptable, in the eyes of others, and that perspective wobbles depending on whose ox is gored. There will be back and forth power struggles for time immemorial as the American public imposes its own constraints on what it considers unacceptable.

I am not worried about the effect of Trump and his narcissistic presidency. The Constitution will survive. It survived FDR's expansion of administative government, but it survived Nixon's crimes directly targeting the sanctity of democracy. It survived Vietnam and the abject cowardice of Congress in funding trillions of dollars for undeclared wars. It survived HUAC and McCarthy, Grant's corrupt administration, Jacksonian spoils, Teapot Dome, and the Robber Barons. It even survived Lincoln's violating it right and left in an effort to save it.

I AM really tired of reading every other day about some asinine thing Trump has said or some crazy approach to an issue that makes it worse, but I am also tired of reading every other day how uncertain it is Democracy will survive him.

The pandemic is changing a lot of things, but I see disruption, not revolution. The problem freaking too many people out is that we are used to prosperity as a country, and anything threatening that seems cataclysmic. It would be quite enlightening for most Americans who are spending their time wringing their hands to pick up a book about the times America actually overcame worse things than a bad president or a snide Congress. The Revolution, the Civil War, World War II, the Depression....

Grab a cup of coffee, get educated about the great leaders of the past who saw us through much darker times. Perhaps we can all find kernels of wisdom that will help light the way forward--or at least let us realize the light is there if we look for it.

Amen. My only caveat is that I do see this period as more of a threat than you do.. But that very well could be recency bias at play.

In fact the inherent biases in all of us — especially the bias to believe that we are less biased than others — are particularly dangerous right now.

@Crimsonorblue22 said in The democratic nominee:

@DoubleDD hey duh, see if you can get this right, last time. I've been a rep. all my life til trump came along. Voted republican for all the the presidents. Not everything else though, just prez. I've had close friends on the other side and I've always been a moderate. But then the dumbest, biggest liar, fake Christian, and cheater, etc came along. I can see right thru him. I use to watch the apprentice. I seriously can not find one morally good thing to say about him. The more he opens his mouth the worse he gets. I seriously can't understand how anyone can believe anything he says. My only understanding is they only watch fox and are spoon fed 💩. Any person can fact check his lies. I'm shocked you can't see thru them. Do you watch his press conferences? I like the press! They ask him hard questions that piss him off cause they catch him in lies. Back to your question, I switched to democrat at the KS state fair after the election. I never vote straight party. Done!

Amen.

@DoubleDD said in The democratic nominee:

@approxinfinity said in The democratic nominee:

@DoubleDD I do think your post was extremely misguided to @DanR 's point! Pelosi saying people shouldn't be afraid of Chinatown has nothing to do with Donald Trump's circus. Completely different and massive orders of magnitude more influential.

Nobody is afraid of china town. The point is Nancy was holding a gathering in a public space without any thought to the virus. And this was mid February.

This is a ridiculous and irrelevant point.

In mid-February, every school in America had full classrooms, there were crowded bars and restaurants, professional and college sports' arenas filled with fans, offices filled with people working.... the democratic candidates were hosting rallies and president himself was holding rallies. It was business as usual EVERYWHERE in America.

In retrospect, it would have been nice if the country had been idling toward social distancing and other measures to diminish the impending epidemic.

But there were no such measures in place in the US in mid-February.

So why exactly are you calling out this interview?

@approxinfinity said in The democratic nominee:

I can get extremely frustrated at @DoubleDD but at least he’s trying to have a conversation with people who have differing opinions which is more than we can say about our idiot president.

1) There is growing evidence that he's not actually trying to have a conversation.
2) I called him out for his deflective tactics and he called me an idiot.

I don't see him being swayed by any amount of evidence on these topics. He is one with the kool-aid.

Now, if we're talking basketball, thankfully there is common ground and ability to discuss the game with all of its glory and its warts.

Be careful out there. Outrageous, sensational content is highly infectious. Facebook and other social media are to fake news what a hand rail on a NYC subway is to Covid-19.

@jayballer73 I would like to know where you found that info.

People who want to manipulate public perceptions are producing this stuff and targeting it.

If you want to push for a ceremony this summer, this is my 2 cents:

I think by July, there will be a shift in the guidance that will focus breaking the population in to three groups: high-risk, medium-risk and low-risk. The priority will still be to protect those who are most vulnerable, but will allow others to return to "normal" with the added goal of getting some herd immunity going in the low-risk population.

I think high-risk will be those with a pre-existing condition (any age) -- particularly obesity or auto-immune deficiency AND those who are older (70 and up). The high-risk will be advised to continue to "shelter in place". They can't /shouldn't come to the ceremony. Probably a live stream of the service is the way to go for those folks.

Medium-risk folks will be in the 50-70 range. They will need to be careful, but I think guidance will be more nuanced. The 50-70 year olds may attend, but will need to be out of crowds (no dancing). Perhaps have a designated place for this group that is more spread out during the ceremony and some other place for them during any dance or reception.

The low-risk folks (younger than 40 and no health risk factors) may feel comfortable sitting together and maybe even dancing on the same floor.

That's my guess as of now.. assuming people continue to follow the orders through May so that there's a clear decline in cases.

No matter what, I'd expect sanitizer to be everywhere. :-) The virus will be out there for quite a while and we'll each be at risk until a vaccine comes or we survive it and develop antibodies.

Yep, better safe than sorry.. and also better sane than paralyzed by fear.

@approxinfinity said in COVID may survive in a freezer for 2 years:

Just wanted to relay this.

https://english.alarabiya.net/en/features/2020/03/19/How-long-can-coronaviruses-survive-in-a-freezer-Up-to-two-years-warns-expert ↗

I haven't done due diligence on this source, and I haven't seen it elsewhere... (yet) How confident are you in it?

Not saying it is or isn't true... just wearing the skeptic's hat.

This statement is not insignificant, but easy to brush over: "... if it is similar to coronaviruses from the same family"

This is an article that is pretty scary/concerning, primarily based on this speculation that it may behave the same as other similar viruses.. Not outlandish, but not substantiated... and probably worthy of more caution than the authors provided.

@BShark said in The democratic nominee:

We obviously can't see it happen but I believe that whether Biden or Trump wins, the next four years will play out exactly the same.

This about sums it up

Two privately owned political parties choose two candidates with nearly identical policies and then voters try to guess which will be slightly less shitty. Both parties hold primary votes, but neither is under any legal obligation to uphold the results if they want to go with someone else. There's no preferential voting, the system is designed to give a third party candidate the longest odds possible. They use easily rigged electronic voting machines. The political and capitalist classes hold near complete control over mass media and have no reservations about lying or burying stories they don't like. On top of all of that, there is quite a lot of outright fraud in manufacturing fake votes and suppressing or destroying legitimate ones.

So I guess I'm just getting more and more disillusioned with the process and THE SHOW.

I don't want to be in this camp, but I think I'm sitting right next to you @BShark I don't think it will be exactly the same, but I fear the same mechanics are at work on both sides. Both have escalated the game to the point that it's getting harder to diffuse things, find the common ground and compromise. When they play the game set at "Win At All Costs," we all will lose.

@kjayhawks said in The democratic nominee:

I’d be shocked if trump doesn’t win by miles. People are scared of change, Trump is fool but people know what to expect. With the the talks of socialism and what not it’s a huge guess to what Biden does good or bad.

I agree people are resistant to change, but it's not like Trump has been exceptionally consistent or predictable.

@approxinfinity said in The democratic nominee:

@kjayhawks part of the problem there is actually the decline in news coverage. With less reporters working stories, there's less coverage.

! ↗

Local news is the biggest casualty from the online advertising model. It's a hard problem to solve as the business models benefit from efficiency that comes with concentration.

@DoubleDD said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

And I think your a idiot

Well done.

@DoubleDD said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

@bskeet

I think I understand now your question. When you have a open border mentality and you just want to allow anybody and everybody to come into Your state city or country then you increase the risk of disease virus or criminal activity to explode in your said city state and country. Hope that answers your question

You are a troll.

@DoubleDD said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

I’m all for closing the borders. It’s simple. Don’t want more Infected individuals coming into the country

Great. I'm all for creating a vaccine.

Neither of these points were what we were talking about.

What a waste of time.

@DoubleDD said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

I’m truly confused

Sadly, we agree on this.

@DoubleDD said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

@bskeet said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

@DoubleDD said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

@bskeet said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

@DoubleDD said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

@bskeet said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

Oh, yeah.. also that Seattle retirement home was an early hot spot.... Canadian immigrants?

So if your saying shutting down the borders was no help. Then what was Trump supposed to do that would have made you smile?

Please avoid putting words in my mouth and then asking a deflective question.

The previous message implied that when Trump shut down the borders quickly, it was a significant move in the effort to slow the virus.

My question is simple: how did shutting down the borders significantly slow the spread of the virus?

Based on my understanding, the virus doesn't discriminate based on visas or citizenship.

I reiterate what seems like a relevant observation: ski resorts were an early hotspot. Not to mention seniors in retirement homes, people on cruise ships, TSA officers at airports. None of these seem like hubs of immigrant activity. Au contraire! It suggests that it was spread by people with the means to travel.

These may be inconvenient facts that don't fit into a particular narrative about borders, walls and immigrants.

So again I ask? you think the borders should Be open? As they have no effect on curbing the spread of the coronavirus? Not putting words in your mouth. It’s called a question.

I asked a question that you clearly won't answer. I didn't say it.. You did. And you won't explain it.

Done.

Oh I’ve said many times I th8nk closing the borders is a great idea.

Nice.

That's not what you said and not what I was asking you to explain.

Stop twisting.

@DoubleDD said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

@bskeet said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

@DoubleDD said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

@bskeet said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

Oh, yeah.. also that Seattle retirement home was an early hot spot.... Canadian immigrants?

So if your saying shutting down the borders was no help. Then what was Trump supposed to do that would have made you smile?

Please avoid putting words in my mouth and then asking a deflective question.

The previous message implied that when Trump shut down the borders quickly, it was a significant move in the effort to slow the virus.

My question is simple: how did shutting down the borders significantly slow the spread of the virus?

Based on my understanding, the virus doesn't discriminate based on visas or citizenship.

I reiterate what seems like a relevant observation: ski resorts were an early hotspot. Not to mention seniors in retirement homes, people on cruise ships, TSA officers at airports. None of these seem like hubs of immigrant activity. Au contraire! It suggests that it was spread by people with the means to travel.

These may be inconvenient facts that don't fit into a particular narrative about borders, walls and immigrants.

So again I ask? you think the borders should Be open? As they have no effect on curbing the spread of the coronavirus? Not putting words in your mouth. It’s called a question.

You made a statement and I simply asked you to explain it. I didn't say it.. You did. And you won't explain it.

Done.

@DoubleDD said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

You do know when I say borders I mean everything. Boats, planes, so on?

That wasn't clear, so thank you.

That said, he has repeatedly resisted shutting down travel within the US which would help protect his own people. Now, I'm not big on authoritarian, centralized federal controls, but I do think states look for leadership in moments of crisis. He could set a better tone that encourages safety over the freedom to roam and infect.

Some states still have no guidance to stay at home and keep distance from others. Residents of those states can travel to other states and infect others. That doesn't help form a more perfect union.

@DoubleDD said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

@bskeet said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

Oh, yeah.. also that Seattle retirement home was an early hot spot.... Canadian immigrants?

So if your saying shutting down the borders was no help. Then what was Trump supposed to do that would have made you smile?

Please avoid putting words in my mouth and then asking a deflective question.

The previous message implied that when Trump shut down the borders quickly, it was a significant move in the effort to slow the virus.

My question is simple: how did shutting down the borders significantly slow the spread of the virus?

Based on my understanding, the virus doesn't discriminate based on visas or citizenship.

I reiterate what seems like a relevant observation: ski resorts were an early hotspot. Not to mention seniors in retirement homes, people on cruise ships, TSA officers at airports. None of these seem like hubs of immigrant activity. Au contraire! It suggests that it was spread by people with the means to travel.

These may be inconvenient facts that don't fit into a particular narrative about borders, walls and immigrants.

Oh, yeah.. also that Seattle retirement home was an early hot spot.... Canadian immigrants?

@DoubleDD said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

@bskeet said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

@DoubleDD said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

@bskeet said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

@DoubleDD said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

You ever ask yourself why I defend presidents regardless of party. Sure they get elected on their party. Maybe I’m a sucker, but when they step in that position. It changes them. They are the ruler of the free world, and they so want to badly to do the right thing. Sorry friend I don’t buy into your Trump hate.

I hope you are not suggesting that I'm somehow un-American because I will not blindly follow and defend a president -- specifically, this president. A functional democracy deserves a commitment to both decorum and dissent. Decorum is not something you can demand; it's a social contract. Dissent is not a threat to authority; it is the ultimate form of patriotism.

Never, did I think that I would be in this position. I'd like to defend the president. Every president is human; they all make mistakes. But I cannot and will not condone or abide what has become — not an unfortunate series of mishaps — but rather, a well-established pattern of behavior.

I'm concerned about the growing lack of respect for the office of the president — especially by the youngest generation — I'm worried what this will mean for the future. We have to repair the respect. But it will require more leaders with propriety on both sides than we have today.

The country was founded on common ground of core values and compromise of ideology. Politicians would argue ideology, but at the end of the day, they were together on the values that defined what it meant to be an American. These ideals were nonpartisan and have been publicly called out by some conservative leaders (McCain, Romney).

Values should be immutable, not situational. Treating them as such is a threat to the republic.

Finally @DoubleDD , please stop ascribing motives and assuming you know what I think and what I've done. I am not telling you what to do and I do not presume to know anything about your motives or beliefs beyond what you put down in pixels here. There is no need to put words in my mouth.

There was man that came along to a big Space of land. One side was owned by God and the other by the devil. And between the lands was a fence that ran straight down the middle. The man understood the truth and the values God, but was intrigued by the devil and his thoughts. Not wanting to choose between the two hoping to make peace and a compromise. He decided to stay on the fence. At the end of the day the devil came up to the man and said, come with me. The man said hold on I didn’t choose a side I respected both you and God. The devil responded and said Ah, but I own the fence. You made a choice.

Someone may hate Trump because of the way he looks or how he carries himself. Also they may not like his policies. But to blame the man for the coronavirus outbreak in America. Shows a lack of compassion and common sense. Take a look around the world? Everybody’s infected with the coronavirus. Even the Prime Minister of England is not doing so well right now, as he has caught the coronavirus.

I have no doubt that Trump is not a perfect man but to act like somehow he could’ve stopped this coronavirus from spreading. I don’t agree with. For those that want to just blame him that shows that you’re really just a Trump hater, and playing politics.

I'm not really sure what your allegory is supposed to insinuate, but I assure you I am not on the fence. My position is clearly on one side and I guess you'll have to label the side that I'm on.

I do not and have not blamed Trump for the outbreak of the coronavirus. I never said he could stop it. You are peddling rhetoric to keep the fanning the flames.

I hold Trump accountable for his cavalier attitude in January and February, and his dismissive comments that sometimes confused and sometimes contradicted the advice of experts, and his slow and tepid response in March.

Anyone who thinks his response was 'good' (or 'perfect' as he has suggested) is delusional. Evidence is mounting that the US will be hit worse than almost any major country, despite our immense advantages (including resources and distance from the origin point of the virus/time to react to the threat.)

He is a crappy leader at best and, there's plenty of evidence that he's actually a dangerous leader.

Well call me delusional. I believe a leader, or a president can only go by the information that they have. January was a long time ago. Plus not to mention our government was enthralled in an impeachment trial that was a sham. And by your statement you are in fact kind of saying that if Trump would’ve acted earlier then he could’ve prevented the spread of the coronavirus. Is this not a fair statement?

I think the problem that you don’t see is we have a political party that makes up half the country if not more. The same party believes in open borders, and openly and publicly defies any of the presidents actions. Example sanctuary cities, and let’s also not forget Trumps ban on some Muslim countries was held up in the courts for months. So I’m not sure if Trump would’ve acted earlier It would have changed the current situation.

Btw Trump was pretty fast in shutting down the borders, even the medical experts say so.

Help me understand how shutting down the borders was significant. Some of the early outbreaks were in counties in Colorado and Idaho where there are ski resorts. Not exactly where immigrants flood into the country.

@jayballer73 said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

@Crimsonorblue22 said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

Walmart in Kansas!
https://www.ksn.com/news/local/newton-police-investigating-social-media-video-of-two-people-claiming-to-have-coronavirus-and-coughing-at-walmart/ ↗

WHY? - - - WHY would people do this? - just plain simple idiocy . - This is no joke , but yet they get their jollies this way. they need the stiffest charges brought against them.

I suppose poetic justice would be served in a prison with a covid-19 outbreak.

@DoubleDD said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

@bskeet said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

@DoubleDD said in Differentiating fact from opinion on COVID-19:

You ever ask yourself why I defend presidents regardless of party. Sure they get elected on their party. Maybe I’m a sucker, but when they step in that position. It changes them. They are the ruler of the free world, and they so want to badly to do the right thing. Sorry friend I don’t buy into your Trump hate.

I hope you are not suggesting that I'm somehow un-American because I will not blindly follow and defend a president -- specifically, this president. A functional democracy deserves a commitment to both decorum and dissent. Decorum is not something you can demand; it's a social contract. Dissent is not a threat to authority; it is the ultimate form of patriotism.

Never, did I think that I would be in this position. I'd like to defend the president. Every president is human; they all make mistakes. But I cannot and will not condone or abide what has become — not an unfortunate series of mishaps — but rather, a well-established pattern of behavior.

I'm concerned about the growing lack of respect for the office of the president — especially by the youngest generation — I'm worried what this will mean for the future. We have to repair the respect. But it will require more leaders with propriety on both sides than we have today.

The country was founded on common ground of core values and compromise of ideology. Politicians would argue ideology, but at the end of the day, they were together on the values that defined what it meant to be an American. These ideals were nonpartisan and have been publicly called out by some conservative leaders (McCain, Romney).

Values should be immutable, not situational. Treating them as such is a threat to the republic.

Finally @DoubleDD , please stop ascribing motives and assuming you know what I think and what I've done. I am not telling you what to do and I do not presume to know anything about your motives or beliefs beyond what you put down in pixels here. There is no need to put words in my mouth.

There was man that came along to a big Space of land. One side was owned by God and the other by the devil. And between the lands was a fence that ran straight down the middle. The man understood the truth and the values God, but was intrigued by the devil and his thoughts. Not wanting to choose between the two hoping to make peace and a compromise. He decided to stay on the fence. At the end of the day the devil came up to the man and said, come with me. The man said hold on I didn’t choose a side I respected both you and God. The devil responded and said Ah, but I own the fence. You made a choice.

Someone may hate Trump because of the way he looks or how he carries himself. Also they may not like his policies. But to blame the man for the coronavirus outbreak in America. Shows a lack of compassion and common sense. Take a look around the world? Everybody’s infected with the coronavirus. Even the Prime Minister of England is not doing so well right now, as he has caught the coronavirus.

I have no doubt that Trump is not a perfect man but to act like somehow he could’ve stopped this coronavirus from spreading. I don’t agree with. For those that want to just blame him that shows that you’re really just a Trump hater, and playing politics.

I'm not really sure what your allegory is supposed to insinuate, but I assure you I am not on the fence. My position is clearly on one side and I guess you'll have to label the side that I'm on.

I do not and have not blamed Trump for the outbreak of the coronavirus. I never said he could stop it. You are peddling rhetoric to keep the fanning the flames.

I hold Trump accountable for his cavalier attitude in January and February, and his dismissive comments that sometimes confused and sometimes contradicted the advice of experts, and his slow and tepid response in March.

Anyone who thinks his response was 'good' (or 'perfect' as he has suggested) is delusional. Evidence is mounting that the US will be hit worse than almost any major country, despite our immense advantages (including resources and distance from the origin point of the virus/time to react to the threat.)

He is a crappy leader at best and, there's plenty of evidence that he's actually a dangerous leader.

These are the articles you are referencing, correct?

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/11/151110115711.htm ↗

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/lab-made-coronavirus-triggers-debate-34502 ↗

https://www.nature.com/articles/nm.3985 ↗

Lightfoot is under-represented in that assessment.