Okay. I think Vick can just stop throwing up garbage anytime now.
And for the love of God can we have a team that hits fts someday
cragarhawk
2309 posts
Again .
Dotson!! We've got Dotson here!!
Wow. 8:50 tip now...
Dotson. We've got Dotson here!!
I assume based on what you've said about Brown then that you are as nervous as I am whenever he is around. He and CS have seemed pretty tight over the years. There's definitely a part of me that has never liked that.
Well, everyone is doing it. What should we expect from Miles. We just want him to win right?
So does this finally elevate us to dumpster fire status?? lol
Okay. I just wanna be clear here. Now that Coach Self has come out and said he has not and does not offer inducements nor knows of any 3rd party inducements. Are we back to the program is clean? And coaches are clean?
I just wanna be sure today what the consensus view is here. Cause I had thought just not long ago it was that everybody is doing it, and we should expect the same if we wish to win.
Dedric doesn't seem to have the explosive type of play. Above the rim ....
But he has basketball savvy in every cell in his body. Kid has great footwork and court awareness, positioning. He is gonna find himself in the right place at the right time much of the time. Just looks likes he's that guy. Should be a great watch
Duke is scary good. May as well face that.
The boredom factor may help. They will probably get bored somewhere along the way and almost lose a game or two. We can hope. There's always the ebbs and flows....
Cal in the ear of the ref... "Wtf man, I'm supposed to get the stack of the top 3 guys and another in the top 20"...
They are better than the UK team that nearly went undefeated I think. But you're right. Tougher league to play in. They may see some challenges
I'm not sure they are gonna lose...
A game...
At all
They are gonna be a problem
Duke finally went a minute of play without a 3 pointer
Holy crap.
Would've been a hell of a deal. Can you imagine what Williamson would have done if we had tried to give him a Ferrari? He may have had 40 or 50 points... Lol
Second half... Eh.
We're really pretty good and we're not even very good yet. Ludicrously high ceiling.
Can Grimes repeat that performance or will he be streaky as some think.
That's true. It would probably never be said. But why not? Maybe it should be. Perhaps it's time it came to that. I mean everyone wants to blame the evil organization right? Expose them for what they are.
@kjayhawks know the difference...
Nobody jumped to any conclusion.
Asking questions. Wondering. Not the same. Not a conclusion. And not unreasonable. Attack the tree at the root, not the branch.
@kjayhawks whether or not its different is not in dispute, and in fact had already been stated.
You're missing the point. Once someone is dishonest with you about even the smallest of things.. you absolutely will begin to question the largest of things. Human nature. If you don't know this already brother. I sincerely hope and pray that you never first hand find out.
@kjayhawks okay. But the basketball team doesn't suck. And after all... That's all any KU fan really cares about right? Winning? Even if we have to do what everyone else does....
You see. Once you start to decide what's okay and what's not. What's gray and what's not on the integrity front.. it can take ya just about anywhere
@BShark absolutely agree. It's on an exponentially different level in my opinion. But the point is well seen. Whenever ya find out things weren't as you thought they were, it suddenly isn't unreasonable to start wondering about all things.
I don't think that either. It's a simple question. Is the thought entering your mind unreasonable. I think if you believe other things you see and hear you can at least say it isn't unreasonable to wonder.
The truth is this. If you are capable of covering up some things, then nobody knows how far youre willing to go. Nobody but you knows how honest you really are. Or what you're capable of. And it is not unreasonable after that... To wonder
@BShark there was one that happened at the dorm...
I'm not accusing anyone here. I'm simply asking a question. With everything else that ppl think goes on and maybe does go on under the table...
Is it unreasonable to begin to wonder about things like that?
Maybe it's that way everywhere? Maybe everyone is doing it? Just saying guys.
Is it unreasonable?
@DoubleDD ya that's completely not the point. I didn't see you nor anyone else saying that type of thing before. Even though I admit there were probably a few that were saying the same then as now. Largely... Meaning for most fans. The narrative has suddenly changed. Plain and simple.
And you cant count me as 1 fan who will still be in support if we lose and are 💯 above board while most others aren't. There may not be alot. But there's for damn sure 1.
@BShark I definitely would and have been one of those that would have defended the program for clean. And I think most would have. I saw as you said very few before hand that believed or at least admitted maybe.. to this what I call new narrative
@BShark okay. So I probably generalized there. If you were or if anyone okay... Was saying that same thing prior. Then I say kudos to ya. And even, hey, well done for being ahead of it when clearly i myself wasn't.
But you do see the point then? By in large that has not been the consensus narrative prior to this all coming out. Correct?
Ya one of the problems I have with that is this..
Nobody was saying that before all this. If someone said we were cheating on any board you read in the country I'm sure the answer was more like. We're KU, the most tradition rich program in history and always will be. We don't have to pay players to come here. Bill Self is clean, he sits players whenever there's any doubt. You should look at you're own dirty guy... Coach ratface or Calimari.....
I have zero doubt that or something similar has been the defense to such claims.
Suddenly now the narrative has changed to this current stance of "everyone else is doing it", "we have to do it too in order to be competitive", "what do you expect us to do" "this has been going on everywhere for decades" and so on...
If it's really okay with you and you really believe it's that way everywhere that's fine. But where was that narrative prior?
@BShark it's very possible I missed those if they actually came out. I bury my head in the sand news wise for the largest part of the year. I pay attention to a few things from about Late night thru late March/early April... And then I'm out. Lol
I was actually wondering to myself today...
Is that part of why the new contract with Adidas hasn't been signed yet? It seems unlikely that we could be holding that as leverage for ppl to say the right things at trial.. when unless I'm mistaken, those ppl are no longer employed by Adidas.. lol
But it does seem somewhat strange and it's reasonable I think to wonder exactly what the deal is with that. We may never really know how big this thing really is.
@BShark certainly, I mean that would be the biggest fish yet I'd think. If they had an actual smoking gun.
I.E. Self on tap asking Adidas rep to pay recruit this much $$$$.
I mean unless I'm mistaken it was said they had Pitino on a tap like that, and where has that gone? I've yet to hear about that tape being outted to the public. Does such a tape exist. Same thing for Sean Miller.
I think if they existed we would of heard them by now. Or... They've been buried by those whose best interest is to keep them buried.
I think we have to assume the same thing for Self. There either is no such recorded convo. Or.. there is, and somebody doesn't want anyone to know it.
The reports do actually make it sound factual and it could very easily not be. That is a very true statement.
However, I think we can all agree, that everything that has come out at least points to a better chance that there is some validity there. It looks bad and smells bad.
And even with that it could all be bunch of crap. But I believe at least half the ppl on this site would say it's naive to think so... I don't personally remember seeing alot of that view before this all came out. But perhaps it didn't need to be said prior. I could be wrong.
@wissox literally laughed outloud. 😁
@mayjay without picking a side cause I
- Don't really belong to one, and
- Don't really believe there should be sides to begin with.
I'll reply this...
I dare say the current president was definitely not the one or at least not the first to teach that "lesson". Which is more of an actual shift in culture than I'd say a lesson so to speak.
That's been going on for for decades as well. Andy Kauffman was really good at it. I'm sure there were others before him.
Rap music in the early ninety's and so on and so forth down the rabbit hole. Until now. If you watch closely, which incidentally I don't anymore because it is this way....
It's gone past the point of any publicity being good publicity straight to only bad publicity is good publicity. Every media outlet in the world has caught onto that. Sin sells if you will....
If you look at how UK took off recruiting wise after their newly hired coach, who had just left a program under a shadow of vacated wins and such. I'd say you're probably spot on. Now we should technically start getting 4 of the top 5 guys year in and year out after this. Sadly, that adds up.
Idk. The Nike/Arizona/Ayton thing just kinda went completely away it seems. They played the athlete and the coach sat what? 1 game.
Maybe Nike has more of a stake in all this than anything else. How do we know that Nike isn't in some negotiation to become the only shoeco and have a monopoly thru the NCAA. The multibillion dollar Giants gets more of the only thing it cares about $$$, and Nike gets all the exposure and sales. Why not? Stick to Adidas and under armour publicly thru the court system with these bs indictments and pave the way for this deal to take place.
I wouldn't put anything past anyone anymore.
@BShark hell ya. Why not say it makes a difference. We still had a legitimate shot at beating UK that year as is. Couple balls bounce a different way and we win that game. One of my most favorite teams...
@BShark kinda adds up. That's when Knight's teams really began to fall off badly
He got more out of them cause they were scared of being choked the eff out!!! Lol
I'd like to say I absolutely believe Coach Knight was 💯 clean. Would definitely have before...
In light of recent events I'm skeptical about everyone for the last 50 to 60 years I guess...
@Kcmatt7 let's say that is the truth
It taints the game doesn't it? The game, the history of it and everything included.
Who do you personally hold in higher regard.. Roger Maris? Or Bonds, Sosa, and Mcquire?
I admit. I still just do not understand the Preston thing if we're a dirty program...
I mean there is the argument that paper trail was more blatant. Until this recent evidence about desouza, and what could have been potentially with Williamson and or Ayton. That kinda blows that argument doesn't it?
Beyond that, what is the difference here? Dollar amount? Does that change the fact that it's a blatant rules violation In the current system?
Why play desouza and keep Billy out? Or also. Why not play Billy too of we're dirty and we know it and the NCAA doesn't really care as long as it gets it's bank?
It makes me think there's just so much more to all of this than we will ever know.
Maybe I just refuse to see it all for what it is. I just want a smoking gun the other direction. I wanna be able to say Dammit, see.... Bill does it right and largely overchieves at it in spite of that
@BShark largely I think you're probably correct, and I also think that sad and unfortunate
@cragarhawk no I don't watch alot of Ku football games,. I have at times, and no I don't watch alot of royals games but I have at times.
But that would be unfair as I don't watch alot of football or baseball period. I love the game of basketball.
Ku basketball.... I don't wanna ever miss another game, and I don't ever wanna love another program or sport like I do KU basketball.
@Kcmatt7 and of course I care that the program is successful. Winning is always more fun than losing. But I also don't know that I believe a program absolutely can't be successful unless they're dirty. There's different levels of success and sometimes the most important levels go beyond the score board. Again, in my own opinion
I don't have a set standard on it. That really would be no better.
If you're willing to trade dirt for wins, what's a lil more dirt for a few more wins and another NC or 2 while we're at it.
Clean is clean, and I'll live with the record it produces. I'm not gonna stop loving Ku basketball if they lose.
I'd honestly rather hear that my team sucks and be able to say ya you're right they aren't very good this year, but we absolutely aren't cheating, which is the right message for the kids we're sending out into the world. Than to hear, 15 straight bought and paid for big 12 titles huh Mr jayhawk fan.. and have to say... Ya you're right, we bought better recruits and paid more money then you did losers....
And yes I know it's 2018 and I don't fit in for having that mentality. And that's okay. My opinion doesn't require anyone's validation
Imagine if the FF banner comes down. Imagine if the 14th lil 10 title is stripped. Imagine if there's a post season ban. Then we will get to say damn that was a great run of tourney appearances in between those violations and sanctions. It's easy to see the response from those who think rules aren't for them cause they don't like the rules...
The NCAA screwed us. They punished us and let others get away with it. It's a bunch of crap. Right?
For all the convos over the years. A prevalent one has been. Would you trade any big12 titles for just one more NC, 2 more, etc. Would you miss the tourney one year for just 1 more NC etc. And of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion on all of it.
I'm capable of holding things in perspective. So here it is. And I know... Ppl arent commonly good with "IF, THEN" statements here...
If everyone else is cheating, and if that is an undeniable fact. And we are not. And that is an undeniable fact.
Then... I don't care if the program is as successful as it is now.
I believe they will almost certainly have to do an external investigation if for no other reason than to save face. I still like to believe in the good in ppl. So I kind of hope that happens and it turns up that our guys didn't do anything wrong. That's the first best outcome in my opinion as of today. But I admit I hold out little hope for that. It very much does at least appear that we weren't above board.
Beyond that I think it's still too early for any of those decisions. I think I'd want to see the investigations findings, and any NCAA rulings on violations/punishments etc. Before saying anyone should be fired and so forth.
Excellent question and topic. It's definitely food for thought
Either way all of this is almost certainly a black eye in the court of public opinion. No matter how valid. That's the world we live in. Whats it do as far as tarnishing self's legacy here? Maybe it's still too early to tell.
If the NCAA sweeps it under the rug for monetary reasons. Which I do now firmly believe they have done in the past with other programs. How will we personally look at the legacy. And again the court of public opinion. I'm sure we've all heard or read the ole "Dollar Bill" thing and such from other fan bases. Ya know... Coach K ratface, Calipari Slimeball. It's all out there. Just not sure how I'd respond now to that.
Missing on some big time recruits and sitting some guys over reasonable doubt about violations in the past was at least some ammunition to refute such claims even if you thought "eh, it could be going on everywhere"
Now what will I say... What will we say to the "dollar Bill the slimeball cheater" phrase when we are certainly sure to hear it. Ya ya, but he's our slimeball!!! Idk
What a mess
Can't argue that at all. That has to be true.
Imagine being the new AD.... And finding out the football team is not your biggest problem after all. That has to suck