@BShark I have seen this comment a lot about Self "knowing the risks" in signing Billy. I know about the several schools issue and the risk of ineligibility there, but did I miss something somewhere where there were hints of impermissible benefits?
Of what risks, pray tell, dost thou speak?
@Kcmatt7 Isn't he the one who tried to recruit the porn star?
@Buster-1926 FWIW, just posted my answer in the original thread but I need to look at your post here more carefully.
If it becomes a non-profit/tax investigation, they could recover just a couple of years at most. I have no doubt Congress would immediately create all the exemptions necessary to protect the schools and ncaa in future years.
I think the FBI has no reason to try to upset the ncaa apple cart or get rid of it. They like it when big unwieldy organizations get all dysfunctional, and get to take advantage of the investigating private organizatons can do not hampered by DOJ rules.
Crimsonorblue22 said:
@wissox our first clues were your questions about running miles and miles in boots, in Chicago, in snow and ice, below zero temps-plus neg wind chill. Jk you!
Actually, just moving to Chicago calls the whole "dope" thing in question. I think everyone else is leaving. :cold_sweat:
@benshawks08 Very succinctly and eloquently put.
As I think on this more, that might be the NCAA's out: investigate whether this affected the integrity of the games, and if not then announce new rules following a big, "Whew!"
JayHawkFanToo said:
We are talking about piddly amounts of money. Yes, the multimillion operations operate that way but we are talking about low 4 figure payments here.
That you know of, in one sport. And in that particular sport, don't you think organized crime, trying to take over gambling in the most heavily bet 3 week period of the year, as well as all these NBA players with all their games, would drool at the chance to get leverage over the players any way possible?
Aside: Can't wait for the shareholder actions if the big corps get in stock-tumbling trouble.
@wissox Not the def of doping anymore. Now, it is PEDs. For the Rooskie curlers, meldonium, whatever the hell that is.
@JayHawkFanToo Loans more likely to have originated in places like Colombia or Mexico or even Russia. Huge caches of cash (couldn't resist) tend to flow along the same paths as other untraceable commodities, and seem to implicate organized crime involvement.
Gad, I hope there isn't any gambling investigation going on simultaneously!
@benshawks08 For the rest of us, if we shoot an unarmed person, it is usually brought up in the context of a defense after charges are brought. And most laws (excluding stand your ground laws that are getting interpreted or extended more broadly) require that the defense be based not only on an actual fear but that the fear be reasonable and that the amount of force used is justified.
The standards for cops are different because they are usually responding to some type of threatening situation. More importantly, the investigations start from a presumption of "good shoot" and the overwhelming majority don't get explored by 12 jurors weighing all the evidence.
@Kcmatt7 It perhaps could work even better if they guaranteed NCAA immunity to any player who reported shady inducements. Use the players as confid sources rather than punishing them if they self report going to dinner with a crook who paid for it.
I'd much rather have the chance to catch the illegal hunter than simply making sure no one gets his target.
Paying players would make no difference because players can still be tempted by more outside money. They should simply let players have nonexclusive contacts with agents and loans (to be reported to the NCAA) that can be disavowed if said agent doesn't get the player X amount upon leaving school or within a year, say. And pass an actual law providing for criminal penalties for anyone seeking to induce a player or family member to sign a nonreported contract.
Open contracting like that will run the shady characters out quickly.
@kjayhawks Clearing house decisions before new info comes are irrelevant. Ask Cal.
@Kcmatt7 If the NCAA doesn't do anything or at least launch an extensive investigation, they leave themselves open to suits by anyone they did punish during this time. Organizations are able to adjudicate stuff with their voluntary members, but the courts are willing to step in when the organization doesn't follow its own rules or engages in serious favoritism (which this one would be).
I think it is likely there will be a big investigation, lots of hand-wringing, a couple of public punishments for schools with staffers implicated, and then a comprehensive settlement with voluntary monetary penalties for all the schools concerned.
The NCAA will do enough to make sure no previously sanctioned school can sue and force discovery of its enforcement investigations in general, and of the details on this one.
@HighEliteMajor Fortunately, Self's relationship with JJ was and is good. I was always afraid of a CJ Giles or JR Giddens getting pissed they were forced out and then, out of spite, revealing that they had been taking impermissibles w/o KU knowing. Or worse, fabricating that KU arranged it.
@BeddieKU23 That would tend to the "incredibly stupid" hypothesis!
@HighEliteMajor Actually, that is the fan in me. The lawyer in there is wishing he still practiced so he could get a piece of this. Fortunately, the fan is still in control.
BShark said:
There are players on that list that haven't played college basketball in a long ass time. So I would assume those are legal loans after the fact? I really don't know. But EJ is on there as taking a loan and obviously he graduated awhile ago.
Agents often loan potential draftees money when they sign. As do you, let's hope it was after the season ended. If not by a booster or prearranged by the school, taking money upon signing should be ok. We have had lots of players start prepping for the draft before school ended, and those flights and workouts get paid for by someone.
@BShark I'm hoping it is one of these guys....
@HighEliteMajor My favorite comment on the article from ESPN's stable of fans who comment on every article:
"Whew, Duke is involved so nothing will happen. Thought this was significant at first glance."
@cragarhawk In fact, we already have de facto expansion way beyond the 68 set out on Selection Sunday. All those 30 or more conference tournaments are open to their teams, good and bad, to qualify for the Dance.
@JayHawkFanToo "True top 32"? I wanna listen to that debate!
His lawyer claimed it gets stored in fatty tissue and released when that tissue eventually gets used by the body. Since the newest tests revealed "trace amounts" I can imagine a scenario where a trace slightly over the level of detectability might show up in a test whereas the level was below the threshhold previously or within a margin of error. But I think it unlikely that only now does his body release more of any stored chemical.
The possibility that he is so stupid that he used it again seems almost impossible, but his uncle may have been even stupider. Perhaps he and his uncle did it the first time together, and decided to try smaller doses that eventually built up. But I doubt if any dose that was at all effective would avoid detectability.
I wonder one thing that might explain it if he is innocent--the possibility that the testing has become either more sensitive or more precise, detecting that residue in his system which evaded detection previously. Changes in handling, different testing materials (which could have subtle differences unknown to cause changed results), and even methods of analysis could all play a role. Labs are not infallible.
I had a scare 6 years ago when high contrast CAT chest images taken for my heart revealed small nodules (2-4 mm) in my lungs. Never smoked, but the protocol was for cancer screening follow-ups after 3, 6, 12, 18, and 24 months. Then we found that the protocols changed because all types of non-smokers were being found to have these nodules but they were seldom cancerous (<2% I think)--the high-contrast CAT was able to resolve down to that level, and previous test equipment had only showed 4 to 6 mm. The researchers concluded that rather than detecting cancer earlier, as the medical community had excitedly believed, the followups were endangering the patients more than the nodules, and followups were cut in half (no growth, incidentally). It was a complete reversal of the medical opinion.
I doubt the tests have changed, but I would give the kid a polygraph if he wanted one. Generally unreliable enough so they cannot be allowed in court, but in this situation, if he insists on not having used, I'd give him a chance.
Incidentally, I happened to be volunteering in the medical library at the local VA hospital when that lung issue surfaced. I researched the heck out of it, reading all types of professional periodicals, and found that Journal article that first recommended the change in protocols, and gave it to my cardiologist. It pays to educate yourself when facing anything medical--my doctor has hundreds of patients to educate himself about; I have only one.
@cragarhawk And somehow Self has done everything at KU with only one POY, and having to defeat three of them (2 consensus--Durant, Griffin, 1 who got most--Hield). With another one possible this year, but fading (Trae). And despite winning the conference for 13 years, Self has had only 4 Big 12 POYs. We could get another this year if voters wake up.
Say, what is the story with all those OU POYs, anyway?
@wissox And they are now just as he said, irrelevant, and not much hope for resurrection barring a slam dunk coaching hire. So, would we want those 3 extra titles if we knew we would become irrelevant thereafter?
@JayHawkFanToo Curlers go for beer, I thought.
We all have our individual ways of enjoying basketball. For me, the Streak symbolizes our program as a whole. Unlike the Atlanta Braves who won 14 division titles in a row with a core of players and a couple of HOF pitchers, the Jayhawks have been represented by over 100 players throughout these years, with no one at KU longer than 5 years, and with the best often gone in 3 or less.
The Streak enhances my appreciation of all those kids who have kept up the standard of excellence with just their connection of Jawhawk heritage in common (plus a brilliant coach and a staff par excellence, of course).
@nuleafjhawk Bobby Darin called to agree.
@HighEliteMajor On a more serious note, I was only talking about experiencing F4 losses as a fan (especially in the semis), and obviously it is different for the program and the players and those things you mention, as well as fans who attend.
There have been enough of them for us that I know that feeling. Repeatedly. The WS for the Royal in '14 was different because it had occurred so seldom. The feeling, despite losing, was exhiliarating. And presaged a lot of good feelings about '15.
Remember, I was talking about would I have wanted a couple more NON-championship F4s rather than the Streak looking back on it. I don't think two more would have resulted in anything other than more "Self choked" talk in the historical perspective. The Streak if it gets to14 would be unique. Three teams lose in the F4 every year. That is nice but doing it twice in 14 years (even 4 if we are adding two to the existing ones) is not something that will probably never be done.
But do not confuse this with not wanting to get to the F4 this and every year. Gotta get there to win it!
@HighEliteMajor It was the lurker, not you! Been there, done that...
@HighEliteMajor I knew that would get you!
@joeloveshawks I don't really care about Final 4s if there isn't an NC at the end. Just another week of anxiety and heartbreak if you lose. (I realize for players it is different.)
But until there is a time machine with an operator crooked enough to rig the past, this is a worry without enough substance to keep me awake.
@Hawk8086 At least in that scenario we get #14. What if Squeaky wins it outright? That is the darkest nightmare outcome I can imagine!
I won't set out how it is possible because it requires a losing streak I refuse to put in print.
@bmensch1 Yeah, let's examine both of these. Tank to become a 9 gives you a first round against the 8. Then the 1 in the second round, so you can possibly get an easier third round matchup? That one makes no sense. A team at a 6 or 7 should not want to move down because they are both in the lower half of the bracket already.
Now, if you are the 8/9 going in, possibly moving to the 10 helps you, not in the third round, but in the second. You can get the 2 in the second round as the 10 rather than the 1 you would face as an 8/9. After that, the 3, if brackets hold, then the 1 in the reg final. So you avoid the 1 until 4 rounds in.
The problems with tanking to plan your seeding include (1) the committee is not that predictable far enough in advance for you to manipulate where you are placed; (2) it is impossible to anticipate how 33 conference tournaments will come out, and power conference mid-tier teams routinely get placed in those middle bracket positions, but upsets can jumble the mix; and (3) there is no way to know if that top half of the field team you just begged to face in the first round is actually pretty strong -- it might be underseeded, too, and you could now be the underdog (maybe playing far from home) because you gave up a chance to be a favorite.
Most importantly, the tourney is single elimination so if you guessed wrong you are immediately screwed. In a double elim tournament, strong contestants who get "upset" in their first round have been accused of throwing that game so they can play in the loser bracket against theoretically weaker opponents. (I recall this in tennis and some other sport--a women's sport?--where it was a big scandal.)
Finally, it is just hard to turn winning or losing on and off. A team projected at 8/9 trying to protect its chances of getting to the second weekend would do better to try like hell to win enough to become a 6 or 7 rather than trying to get down far enough to be the opponent of those seeds.
A better question in my mind is whether there is more predictable seeding at the top lines offered by the committees projected 1 thru 4 seeds. If you are likely a 2 or 3 it would behoove you to play hard to avoid falling to a 4. But is there a chance that the last 4 might want to fall to a 6? I still think that is all too hard for any team to predict, and too hard to turn around when you need to.
All in all, losing on purpose is literally a loser strategy.
@HighEliteMajor I posted the Topeka Y info yesterday morning. It was found in the media guide. Chock full of tidbits!
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@Blown You never have heard a word from me about KU on the short end, and never will. Referees trying to eliminate statistical disparities caused by teams would be bias.
Tell me, how should referees respond if one team goes on a foul party while the other team doesn't? Isn't it worse to have the refs start getting hesitant to blow whistles for fear of being automatically accused?
Most importantly, please let us know precisely where the cutoff is. Are referees obligated to ensure there are no extremes in a box score? "Can't call that foul--that team has had 3 players foul out already."
@Crimsonorblue22 Incidentally, did anyone ever see the announcers? If this was an ESPN remote job, they don't get to count the announcers.
@Crimsonorblue22 I think they can count the ushers, the mascot, cheerleaders and security. If necessary, what the hell--even the cartoon Cowpoke on the court.
When he said "Here comes the crowd" it was literally all 563 of them!
Would we have college BB without all the Chevy commercials? Do they advertise beer anymore?
@drgnslayr @CRH107 @benshawks08
My answer may have appeared flippant, but it was based on the fact that in his recruitment Trae was clearly looking for a coach who would let him be the determinant of everything from playing time to style of play. Since I believe thatdesire is indeed a reflection of his personality, I think KU and Self would have just been frustrating for him. He has not adjusted well to the increased pressure he has experienced at OU when he stopped astounding everyone--I think KU for him would have resulted in a meltdown and him leaving rather than submitting to Stubborn Bill.
I think the notion he would have benefitted is based on wishful thinking about what he was looking for. In a theoretical sense, yes if he had come to KU he could have benefitted greatly. In the practical world, no, because that assessment is based on the program's advantages, which Trae clearly did not seek.
@Kcmatt7 Are there any beer vendors you think the Royals should keep? jk!
@justanotherfan Nice post, but I feel I need to respond to your last paragraph. We as fans are fully capable of evaulating how DG makes a decision, but the consequences are pretty insignificant regardless of what he does because he is only playing a game. One fan's view is pretty much as good as any other's, but the total of the entire fanbase response to any DG decision will not have much impact (ignoring fans braying for a coach to be fired).
The consequences of what a policeman decides are far more severe, literally life and death. That itself means that those decisions must be reviewed, as you suggest, by independent authorities.
I just want those authorities to be knowledgeable and expert in all aspects of proper law enforcement AND mental health responsiveness, not just gauging how to cowtow to politically influential officeholders or to the emotional sentiments of an outraged citizenry. I shudder about the number of times I have heard outcry by concerned citizens who, decrying the shooting of someone who was unarguably threatening someone with a weapon, insisted that the cop should have aimed to wound. While that attitude prevails, police will not willingly submit to extensive outside scrutiny.
@drgnslayr Yes, and yes. Plus, it was better for the current and future development of every player at KU.
@Lulufulu The link does not seem to work....
Edit: Here it is.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22519688/jay-bilas-gets-set-march ↗
@jayballer73 Thank God for orthopedists!
And it sounds like they are saying, "Thank God for @jayballer73!"
@drgnslayr Excellent points. And the "how we express them" all too often results in all of us accusing each other of bad motives for having opinions that differ.
@jayballer73 Good luck. I have been lucky to never have knee problems, or back problems. Might be because my ankles collapse whenever anything happens like the crumple zones on modern cars.
Good news: You used the phrase "put me down" due to your knee but they don't do that to humans. (Yet.) You are safe.
@KUSTEVE I wasn't going to rub it in. Spring blooming is going on and I need to cut the grass already here in SC, which other than climate is pretty much a Hell dimension.