BShark said:
Svi doesn't drink or do any drugs.
In this world? Why not?
See, @REHawk, there's my cynical side!
mayjay
7180 posts
@Crimsonorblue22 Squeaky? SZ? RockChalkInTexas?
@wrwlumpy And I am sure he has never touched a drop except back home where he could legally drink in a restaurant at 16 (not hard liquor), and could buy anything at 18.
Crimsonorblue22 said:
Guess who is on the tickets?
DG and Svi?
@JayHawkFanToo You responded to my early suggestion that there are lots of other federal actors in this investigation with a diatribe about a whole different group, the ones in the political investigation, repetitively asking if I meant them and concluding with how you don't trust them. So, yes, you did lump them all together.
Screenshot:
Here is an interesting statistical analysis: If KU's odds of winning the B12 every year were assumed to be as high as 50%, say, there would have been something on the order of 6 thousandths of a percent chance (.0061%) of winning 14 in a row. If we assumed that there are enough good teams that we only had a 33% every year, the figure is a .00000181% chance of 14 in a row.
The calculation is extraordinarily unscientific since the chances in any year cannot be calculated at all. Team strength varies, the league membership varied over this time, etc. But figuring KU in any given year has an equal chance as the rest of the league combined is a huge assumption favoring KU, and even that calculaton gets only that .0061%, a miniscule possibility.
Our achievement seems only a little more impressive than flipping a coin twice in a row for heads both times (25%) if we are assumed to have had a 90% chance (absurdly high) each year--22.8%.
Again, this is based purely on the stats, not the teams. If all the teams had an equal possibility every year (adopting for simplicity's sake a number of ten teams every year), that would be 10% to the 14th power, or .0000000000001% chance.
@wissox It actually just sounded real snarky and so not like you....
@BShark After reading that (I have a cast iron stomach) I will probably not miss him when we give up a big touchdown, and I might actually enjoy the confirmation he is gone. I might have nightmares about his tweets the rest of my life, but I won't likely spend a nanosecond wishing he were on "my" team.
@Blown Why would he want to? The program, as the announcers on one game last night said, is about to enter "nuclear winter."
@Crimsonorblue22 Good, but not capable of carrying a team that Trae is driving.
@HighEliteMajor You are describing conflict, not competition. I might want to have my kids spend their time reading and doing homework, while the mall wants them to shop. We have conflicting goals that affect how we each try to motivate them, but are not in competition in an financial sense. The agents want exclusive rights to the kids, but they are signing unenforceable contracts if those require the kids to defraud someone, so I guess that competes in a sense. But they are not competitors in an open market--the agents are engaging in dishonest behavior by any definition.
I actually thought you would say that the agents are trying to represent the kids to obtain something like fair market value for their images and name-bearing apparel, and compete against the NCAA's monopoly (proceeds shared with only the schools). But that would conflict with your view, I believe, that the kids should not get anything financial beyond the current system, so I don't really know how you reconcile your views here.
I actually agree with you on your view about schools paying kids (and how the costs would burden many), but don't see why the system requires Luke Axtell to give up his CD or those Ohio State fb players to not get free tattoos if a studio wants to ink some advertising. Those funds could come from anyone willing to pay, and isn't that the nature of economic freedom?
@jayballer73 Just one thing: Trae has no surrounding excellent players to pick up when he is down. We have excellent players coming back, becoming eligible, or entering. All are capable of picking up slack. No comparison.
@wissox Oh, for crying out loud. This is nuts. Saying you would be "satisfied" if they won the 14th but not the NC means how you will look back on it. It has nothing to do with the eager anticipation of the tournament and the fervent hopes of everyone here that KU go far in the tournament and cap the season off with a crown.
Stop trying to make it sound like you are a superior fan because you are anxious for a championship while you misinterpret some people's voicing of a huge in-depth appreciation of this season as meaning they would be happy to quit.
@JayHawkFanToo I agree it has to do with what you said, but it simply doesn't matter whether you trust them or not based on irrelevant matters. And I am not going to read anything political to try to figure out why you think the way you do. You are entitled to your opinion, but so am I entitled to not have to listen to the basis for it.
I am done with this. You are content to call into question the motivations of 35 thousand members of a law enforcement agency based on information about political decisions made by a few. That says it all and I won't dignify the aspersions in a sports forum by trying to talk sense into you.
@HighEliteMajor Your post got edited just as I was reading it. That was weird to see it suddenly change. It is easier to change these things than people's minds.
I don't see who you are talking about as being in competition with the NCAA.
@BShark Are the Lawsons fast?
@JayHawkFanToo I have listened to all the Gowdy I ever will. I live here, you know. But the Hillary investigation has nothing to do with this discussion.
Paying someone to commit fraud on his employer for the purpose of achieving your own economic gain is criminal. Making an agreement to do so and setting up a network to do it is conspiracy. Taking money that is freely given is no crime, but taking money to participate in a scheme to defraud that is furthered by something you do is.
This is not really hard. You just can't go around conspiring with and paying people to commits acts that defraud someone with whom they have a contactual or fiduciary relationship.
Now, the various levels: No problems with prosecuting the companies and anyone involved with them who knew of the scheme to defraud schools by paying players to attend other schools. No problem with prosecuting the agents who sought to steer clients their way by slipping shady money to people to defraud their schools. No problem with prosecuting any university employees and coaches who took money secretly to advise kids to sign with paying agents.
The kids? Not likely to prosecute unless they fraudulently steered others in exchange for money (i.e., became fraud participants). No problem if they signed documents falsely under oath not disclosing their actual assets, etc. Could be a problematic prosecution if they go after any kid who shared in assistant coach money because the kid is the alleged victim of the overriding fraud crime (by not receiving independent advice from someone under an obligation to act in his best interest).
Family members: Same as the kids, except most won't be involved in signing anything.
Lots of pissed people at all levels.
All this is worth what you paid for--and unknown starutes could easily be in play that change everything.
Thank you, Oregon, for preventing Arizona for one game at least from making even more of a mockery of this season.
@JayHawkFanToo Receiving money can be illegal. Depends on what you are receiving it for. Try arguing "But I didn't actually do it" to a judge when you are charged with accepting a fee to kill someone that you didn't kill. Accepting a bribe is illegal. Accepting money known not to belong to the "giver" can be illegal.
@JayHawkFanToo I wouldn't presume to tell you what engineering standards are, and I think you might be in the same boat on discussing what the law is. Most good lawyers you consult on a case will admit they don't know, as I originally did here, but they will be able to find out what applies once they get the facts from you. My suggestions are all theoretical because obviously there is no access to the investigative materials or legal opinions guiding them.
There are many, many criminal violations not requiring criminal intent. It is a field called strict liability. A simple search gave three examples (not universal, but is some jurisdictions at least)--statutory rape, selling alcohol to a minor, and reckless speeding. But most crimes require at least the intent to do an act, and most require a criminal intent.
@HighEliteMajor I was addressing the overall investigation, the charges already brought, and the potential of other similar charges. My point is, and I should have expressed it more clearly, that there are more issues involved than simply violating NCAA rules, and certainly more prosecutors and offices involved than just one rogue DA or US Atty. I apologize if your conclusions are limited to situations where only NCAA rules are involved.
Even then, I can see a scenario where the NCAA's rules provide a base-level standard of conduct, and all employees have contracts that stipulate to adhering to those standards, and all players have signed documents (grants-in-aid, letters of intent) stipulating to adherence to those rules. I think both civil and criminal conspiracy liability could flow from agreements or inducements to violate the rules, thus rendering worthless part of the university's protections against loss of athletes and potential sanctions by self-governing bodies like the NCAA or a conference. But the charges would be based on the agreements or inducements to commit fraud on the schools, not just on rule violations, and federal jurisdiction usually would occur through the various means (mails, electronic communication, interstate travel, bank instruments, currency in excess of a certain amount used to enter into those agreements, etc) to reach the agreements or provide the inducements.
As to Josh's mother, I think if she simply agreed to receive money, she would be analagous to an illegal drug buyer. We saw this occasionally in the Army criminal cases I had on appeal. One soldier (the dealer) would buy some drugs from an outside source (the pusher), often stupidly telling the supplier his desire to get enough to sell to other soldiers, and letting him know he wanted to have an ongoing retail operation. Then he would sell to other soldiers (end buyers) in small quantities.
Clearly, pusher and dealer have entered into a conspiracy to distribute drugs. But, similar to Apples who simply received the money at the end of the chain, the end buyers merely entered into a two person transaction. They are not party to the agreement higher up the chain, and therefore are not guilty of conspiracy to distribute. When a prosecutor charged a conspiracy to conduct a sale it was just considered part and parcel of the transaction itself, and dismissed, because the elements to the crime were identical. If the sale was interrupted, it became an attempt charge, same analysis.
Apples, assuming no further agreement with the bag man, might be charged with many thing, including fraud, unreported income, or false swearing or nondisclosure if she completed car or mortgage loan applications after getting the bucks. But her agreement to receive money was not part of the conspiracy up the chain. Assuming she didn't ever do more than get paid something. (If she did, we might have a conspiracy between her and the bag man.)
No one has yet answered me about whether athletes have to sign federal aid applications like anyone else receiving money to attend college. My dad was mad when he had to do one just so I could get my $100 minimum Vera B Lear and Natl Merit University Scholarship awards. He offered to buy me off.
BShark said:
I saw this and thought DG and ML were channeling my mom! Back in the 60's my mother decided to start sticking up her index finger, at the last second, when we were using our Polaroid because she thought it would help us focus. So we got lots of pictures with her looking like she was picking her nose. Then in her 60's, she started making a semi-fist under her chin to hide wrinkles, so we have another 25 years of ridiculous looking self-punching to remember her by!
@KUSTEVE Changed it to "compete against." The rest of the conference had to play him, and that is the point. He played 5 mins against us his first year before his injury, and sat out his game as a soph as a precaution (concussion, I think). Those years are when we only played Tex, OSt, A&M, Baylor, TTech, and Okla ( B12 south) once each year. Fortunately when you see how stacked Tex and O State were.
@REHawk I've got a few decades of cynicism on you. My earlier comment didn't explain that part! But I might just direct it differently than some. Closer to you than most, probably!
@cragarhawk I sure don't want their tourney appearance last year vacated. BIFM vs Bridges deserves to stay in history!
The list of NBA players KU had to compete against is pretty impressive. No one can tell me the Big 12 has had no talent:
Player College Draft Yr
Naz Long Iowa State 2017
Johnathan Motley Baylor 2017
Monte Morris Iowa State 2017
Jarrett Allen Texas 2017
Jawun Evans Oklahoma State 2017
Wesley Iwundu Kansas State 2017
Buddy Hield Oklahoma 2016
Abdel Nader Iowa State 2016
Isaiah Taylor Texas 2016
Georges Niang Iowa State 2016
Taurean Prince Baylor 2016
Bryce Dejean-Jones Iowa State 2015
Royce O'Neale Baylor 2015
Myles Turner Texas 2015
Cory Jefferson Baylor 2014
Markel Brown Oklahoma State 2014
Marcus Smart Oklahoma State 2014
Rodney McGruder Kansas State 2013
Chris Babb Iowa State 2013
Pierre Jackson Baylor 2013
Phil Pressey Missouri 2013
Andre Roberson Colorado 2013
Perry Jones Baylor 2012
Quincy Miller Baylor 2012
Khris Middleton Texas A&M 2012
Quincy Acy Baylor 2012
Kim English Missouri 2012
Royce White Iowa State 2012
Alec Burks Colorado 2011
Cory Joseph Texas 2011
Tristan Thompson Texas 2011
Jordan Hamilton Texas 2011
Cory Higgins Colorado 2011
Diante Garrett Iowa State 2011
Jacob Pullen Kansas State 2011
Dexter Pittman Texas 2010
Avery Bradley Texas 2010
Craig Brackins Iowa State 2010
Damion James Texas 2010
Donald Sloan Texas A&M 2010
James Anderson Okla State 2010
Willie Warren Oklahoma 2010
Ekpe Udoh Baylor 2010
Terrel Harris Oklahoma State 2009
DeMarre Carroll Missouri 2009
Taylor Griffin Oklahoma 2009
Blake Griffin Oklahoma 2009
Henry Walker Kansas State 2008
Mike Taylor Iowa State 2008
D.J. Augustin Texas 2008
DeAndre Jordan Texas A&M 2008
Michael Beasley Kansas State 2008
Cartier Martin Kansas State 2007
Kevin Durant Texas 2007
Acie Law Texas A&M 2007
JamesOn Curry OklaState 2007
P.J. Tucker Texas 2006
Daniel Gibson Texas 2006
Thomas Gardner Missouri 2006
Will Blalock Iowa State 2006
Chris Copeland Colorado 2006
LaMarcus Aldridge Texas 2006
Linas Kleiza Missouri 2005
Ivan McFarlin Oklahoma State 2005
John Lucas Oklahoma State 2005
Stephen Graham Okla State 2005
Joey Graham Okla State 2005
Transfers out during Streak:
Sheldon Mac 2016
Joshiah Grey 2016
Justin Hamilton 2012
Xavier Silas 2011
Wesley Johnson 2010
And that doesn't even project to this year.
Source: https://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Big-12-Conference/3/nba-players ↗
I have taken out KU players. That is impressive, too.
@BShark Thank you! Edited it, and it works!
@BShark What is different from mine? Mine just put the link in, but no video.
I couldn't stay up so late just to be nauseated. So, what did he have to say about Miller and about UA's audacity in playing Ayton?
@approxinfinity I tried posting an 8 second vid, lowest resolution possible, directly from my camera but the file size is limited to 2048 kb. So I see what you are saying--you have to post it somewhere so this site goes and loads it whenever viewed.
But how do you embed from YouTube?
@HighEliteMajor Maybe a right wing prosecutor who doesn't like minorities getting access to money. No more "out there" than your theory.
Your legal analysis is flawed, in my view. All your hypotheticals involve hiring someone away. There is nothing wrong with that. But there can be major interstate (i.e., federal jurisdiction) communications issues when you and other people work together to pay (not hire) someone still employed elsewhere to do secret acts violating that person's employment contract or endangering the employer. Conspiring to engage in tortious business interference can be a crime, just as paying someone to divulge business secrets can be a crime.
If course, if you or @JayHawkFanToo (the other poster chanting this refrain) are a lawyer with experience in this field, I defer to your greater knowledge. But the fact that you keep repeating it doesn't make me forget that there are probably literally dozens of lawyers in the FBI and DOJ who have approved the multistate, multiuniversity investigation and have apparently concluded there are federal laws involved here.
@cragarhawk Send a DM to @approxinfinity. He is the Wizard of this particular Land of Oz.
@jaybate-1.0 I think he wanted to keep the pressure of this game off of SDS.
Crimsonorblue22 said:
@kjayhawks he was always good about praising perry Ellis
Bruce was taught to respect his elders.
@DoubleDD I am sure he is correct that it probably wouldn't have happened in the ACC or SEC. But why let that fact bother anybody? It is a meaningless statement, concentrating on nonexistent events in order to make some really bizarre point. UCLA's championship streak likely would not have happened had they been in the ACC. DiMaggio's streak might not have happened if he had to bat against Yankee pitching. Tom Brady would not have been as successful playing for the Browns. The Civil War might have ended differently if Stuart had scouted more conservatively at Gettysburg. If that petri dish with the penicillin bacteria had not been seen.... If Stalin had not purged his generals in the 30's....
History is chock full of stuff that happened that might have happened differently. The fact is, regardless of whether the Big 12 lived up to its rankings during the streak, it is and always has been a Power 5 conference, and KU has had to play and win against numerous HOF coaches, several College POYs and All Americans, and numerous pro draft picks.
This is no Sierra Nevada Directonal School Conference that KU has been winning. Opponents merely needed to win a couple more games in any given year. KU has put together a feat of statistically almost impossible accomplishment. Anyone trying to diminish it by talking about post-season play has missed the point and is just trying to bitch about something. "If Wilt was so good, why not more rings?"
A chorus heard from Texas Tech, K State, Baylor, Texas, I State, Okla State, Oklahoma, WVU, and TCU players, coaches, and fanbases at approximately 5:26 p.m. today while watching KU players celebrate as they departed the court:
"We heard one of their players was poison so there was a chance. Man, they all poison!"
Warning: Olympic spoiler ahead
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KU 14th conference, and before that, the US men pulled it out for curling gold!
Helluva day!
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HCBS: Funhouse mirror, right?
Interesting stats: TT had 15 offensive rebs to our 7, but we tied them in 2nd chance pts at 10.
Also, the announcers kept saying Newman had 4 fouls but the box score shows 3. I wondered about Self playing him with 10 mins left with 4 fouls....
I want to thank all the doubters. This team needed a chip!
@Statmachine Thank you so much for using the adjective "dominant" rather than the verb "dominate" as incorrectly used by so many, including the last 3 times I saw it to describe a team. Finally broke my mind....
@Bosthawk I would like to see the Streak of 14 broken. NEXT YEAR!
Money is in the big contracts players stand to get, and agents want to get their 10%. The investigation could well be helped by agents tired of losing client opportunities to the crooks.
I really don't see any chance the Fibbies are doing anything except pulling loose threads and having fun seeing what unravels. These types of investigations are exciting in their own right--no reason to let Yahoo and company create an air of corruption among the investigated AND the investigstors.
@REHawk Nah, I let cynics be cynical!
Answer: Money.
@HighEliteMajor I am thinking about your comments about the weaknesses in the federal case.
Most fraud conspiracies involve a group of people trying to take someone else's money. Maybe the prosecutors will try to prove a criminal conspiracy to give away money. And, you know something? It is a concept so downright unAmerican it should be illegal.
@BShark I think knowing the risks of speeding, that you might crash, are different from knowing the risks of an asteroid hitting your car, even though both involve the risk of not reaching your destination.
In this case, HCBS and staff had a chance to investigate and predict the risk of a bad result of the academic issue. There was also precedent from other kids. That is entirely different from anticipating losing a player out of the blue due to his or his relatives' financial shenanigans.