justanotherfan said:

This changes everything for college basketball because the money simply will not be there in the future for NCAA basketball.

The shoe companies aren't exactly happy that the NCAA is basically hanging them out to dry on the current FBI investigation. That is a story that really isn't getting much ink, but it exists.

If the best players start going a different route, the networks aren't looking to pay big money for a lesser product.

Coaching salaries are going to have to change. Exploding athletic department budgets are going to have to rein themselves in. This is going to happen.

I don't know what that means for KU, but I think looking at how college basketball was in the late 70's and early 80's might be a hint.

I'm not convinced things are fully headed in that direction but like I said the winds of change are blowing. I think eventually CBB might not exist like we know it today. But this could take 20+ years.

The shoe companies aren't happy now but at the end of the day it's a symbiotic relationship. Maybe that wins out, we don't know yet for sure.

I agree that if it takes off where all the top guys are not going to college eventually what you are describing will happen.

Woodrow said:

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Also is it possible to post the actual tweet and not just the link?

This forum does not support embedding tweets last I knew.

Muh boy CQ

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That's part of the closing argument. Witnesses said differently under oath obviously.

Adam Zagoria
‏Verified account @AdamZagoria

‘Kansas’ Head coach knew of and asked for a payment to be made to Silvio de Sousa’s handler.

‘Coach Self and Coach Townsend knew of and asked Adidas to make this payment to Fenny.’

-Michael Schacter, Jim Gatto’s attorney
11:47 AM - 18 Oct 2018 from Manhattan, NY

Kcmatt7 said:

Nothing to see here.

cOaCh K jUsT dEcIdEd To StArT rEcRuItInG oAdS sO nOw He LaNdS tHeM bUt ThEy ArE nOt PaId It'S aBoUt ThE bRoThErHoOd AnD pLaYiNg FoR a LeAdEr Of MeN

!alt text ↗

Yeah it will be great for some, but not all. I feel for the absolute top kids it will be a benefit. Those are the kids that didn't want to be in college anyway, so win/win.

BeddieKU23 said:

Woodrow said:

Man that would be a kick in the gut to miss on him.

imo has been a possibility since the summer

Agree. He has always said his recruitment is open and was annoyed by the fact that people were saying it was not.

Maybe Jay Wright's money clicked. :thinking:

This is a nice write-up from @1JayhawkLifer on the Phog. Thanks.

"

When Bill came out he said it's always fun to have this Ladies Nights because you get tired of reading the newspaper. Later, after a question from one of the participants, he said "you know I was just thinking about that, because I don't have anything else to think about". They were both said with humor and it helped lighten the mood, but there was definitely a small cloud hovering.

If I were to guess going by SDS's demeanor/body language (although he did smile and seem to be enjoying himself), I don't think he will be playing, at least initially. Which really truly sucks because he is getting screwed by this whole thing and you can tell he just wants to play basketball and be out of this particular limelight.

Some interesting tidbits, during a session on scouting other teams, Norm Roberts said during the tournament when Duke was playing Syracuse a lot of fans probably wanted to play Syracuse, but the staff wanted to play Duke. Boheim's zone is extremely effective and they knew Duke's wasn't. They also noticed a tendency of Bagley's that he was lazy and would not cover his position very well, so they decided to put their biggest and best defender on him, Svi. Which obviously worked very well.

When they were going through the players on Duke's team a picture of Grayson Allen was put up on the screen and the room proceeded to booo very loudly. Norm was like, "Amazingly we have gotten that same reaction from all the other groups as well" He then jokingly said, "I don't like him either." biggrin

They divide the scouting of teams between all the coaches, so while one is scouting the next team up, the others are working on teams that will follow. They usually work about 10 days out on scouting.

When they scout, they show each player the player(s) they will more than likely be going up against. Bill then quizzes each player on the weakness(s) of the opposing player to make sure they understand what to look for and what to exploit when out on the court.

The best leapers on the team are Agbaji & Vick, with it being a toss up as to who is the better of the two. Hudy was asked who, of all the players she has trained, had the biggest leap from start to finish and she said Dedric Lawson. Can't wait to see what he can do on the court.

It was a great time as always, and got me excited for basketball season to begin. Not going lie, this FBI stuff had deflated my enthusiasm a bit, but last night helped restore it.

RCJH!!
"

BeddieKU23 said:

And if this is good for 2019 kids Matthew Hurt will not be stepping foot on a College Campus (in regards to KU recruiting)

Agree and KU should up the ante with Chandler Lawson if this is the case.

Cassius seems like a candidate as well. But then again I think his dad is pretty smart and sees the value of brand exposure playing for a school like KU. I mean they held Cassius back so he is already old for his class, thus looking better against the competition. The average age of G-league players is 25, and the older guys aren't making near 125k. This is going to be VERY interesting.

BeddieKU23 said:

So is this valid for the 19 class or 20?

The article reads like it will effect the 19 class.

"Seven of the top 10 high school players in the 2019 ESPN 100 remain uncommitted to college programs, and the G League landing any of them could have huge ramifications -- for future paths to the draft for star players, the popularity of the NBA's development league and the college basketball talent pool."

All of a sudden, Braun and McBride additions are looking even better.

Stress is a real killer.

BeddieKU23 said:

See ya Duke and Kentucky!

K's back is flaring up right now, and Cal might just retire.

I do think Self genuinely likes coaching and helping kids, maybe I'm naive there but the way he talks about kids like Frank, Jamari, Graham etc...

Thanks to @Woodrow for linking to a tweet about this.

This is big, imo, and needs it's own thread.

The winds of change are howling.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25015812/g-league-offer-professional-path-elite-prospects-not-wanting-go-one-done-route-ncaa ↗

Woodrow said:

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Changes are coming.

This article states that the G league is going to offer 125,000$ contracts and target what would be 1 and done kids. Beginning summer of 2019.

Right on cue! I hadn't even seen this tweet when I made my post.

Kcmatt7 said:

@cragarhawk Have you ever jaywalked?

Ever gone over the speed limit?

Have you ever drank underage?

Have you ever let your kids run an illegal lemonade stand without a license?

Have you ever put $20 on a game with your friend and won, not paid the income tax on that?

Have you ever cut someone's grass for cash and not claimed it on income tax?

Have you ever played a poker game with your buddies for cash?

Those are all laws that people choose not to follow daily. Cops don't even write tickets for pot anymore in Lawrence. You could smoke a J right in front of a LPD officer and they'd just laugh and tell you to go do it somewhere else.

People break laws all the time that they don't believe in. And I'd guess, including you. This high horse thing you are doing is absolute crap and hypocritical unless you are Jesus himself.

Yeah, technically you are supposed to claim garage/yard sale money as well as eBay sales on your taxes. 99% of people don't.

jayballer73 said:

BShark said:

Welcome back, friend.

Thank you bud - - --good to be back

Got out just in time, the boys suit up a week from tonight. :)

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@BShark how long can you stay in G league?

I don't know. Probably a long time. But the salaries aren't great so at a certain point the player would want to consider going to one of the better clubs in Europe and making more money. Lots of the 4 year guys under Self have had good, long careers in Europe.

Edit: In fact the money in college ball is probably better than playing in the G League for the elite guys unless they can get a shoe contract.

Obviously that would basically be the end of college basketball as we know it and for greedy personal reasons I don't want it to happen. But it seems inevitable.

@Crimsonorblue22 Players will develop just as well or better in the G-League imo. Basketball 24/7, instead of pretending to go to class and having limits on practice time to improve their craft. Basically every other league in other countries have youth development programs. Sign the kids on at 13-14 and develop them. Works great for football (or soccer if you prefer) and MLS has actually started doing this as well. Sporting KC have a 16 year old that made it into the game last night. This is where the NBA wants to get to, based on rumors.

Welcome back, friend.

@HighEliteMajor Well, the schools/NCAA wouldn't make a dime without the players so there is that. I'm talking about college only. Pro players have their unions and negotiate their contracts. I don't feel bad for them at all, they are well compensated.

And yes I would be fine with Cal giving 1% of his salary to each scholarship player.

The NCAA is the colleges. Like you said this is why the whole thing is a joke. Secretly they are fine with paying the players imo, they just want it done in the dark. That's why they play pretend, never crack down on the money makers while wagging their finger when Nowhere State visibly breaks a rule.

Woodrow said:

I mean he wasn't called the bag man for a reason!

Now that he is gone how is their class looking this year? Have they missed on anyone?!

They have had a string of high profile whiffs.

Found this interesting...

Capel joined Duke staff in May 2011. The first class he had real impact on was the 2013 class.

2007: National Rank 11 - Best player Kyle Singler (ranked 6th) - only top 20 player

2008 National Rank 14 - Best player Miles Plumlee (52) - no players in top 50

2009 National Rank 20 - Best player Ryan Kelly (16) - only top 25 recruit.

2010 National Rank 16 - Best player Kyrie Irving (2) - only top 35 recruit

2011 National Rank 2 - Based on quantity - Best player Austin Rivers - only top 25 recruit

2012 National Rank 41 - Best player Rasheed Saluimon (14) - only top 25 recruit

2013 National Rank 9 - Best player Jabari Parker (4) - only top 25 recruit

Capel is now involved with entire recruiting process

2014 Nationals Rank 1 - Best player Jahil Oakafor (1) - 3 top 15 recruits

2015 National Rank 2 - Best player Brandon Ingram (3) - 3 top 15 recruits.

2016 National Rank 1 - Best player Harry Giles (2) - 4 top 15 recruits

2017 National Rank 1 - Best player Marvin Bagley (1) - 3 top 10 recruits

2018 National Rank 1 - Best player RJ Barett (1) - 4 top 10 recruits

Woodrow said:

Why? Because the players are getting paid ( which most people believe they should) and ZERO dollars are coming out of there pockets. It is really not that hard to grasp. This is a billion dollar business not some Algebra final.

This is it. They make millions for free. That's why the "rules" are a joke. They know these kids have to be paid somehow and they don't want to do it.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/college-basketball-rankings-the-top-100-and-one-best-players-for-the-2018-19-season/ ↗

For those that don't want to click!

4 Dedric

21 Grimes

54 Doke

94 Vick

KSU has three players on the list: Wade at 23, Brown at 59, Sneed at 74.

If the FBI didn't think they had enough on KT to put him on trial, the NCAA won't do crap.

@Crimsonorblue22 I don't think KU directly paid anyone in regards to Cliff. But it wouldn't shock me if they took shoe money, and I guess blew through it too, since his mom took out that loan.

Diallo's handler probably took shoeco money.

With all the big boys paying (including Nova) only one team a year gets their moneys worth by that definition. The alternative though is probably not even making the tournament.

I wouldn't compare this to things that are actually illegal. Then again I don't think this is bad. Personally, I wouldn't even call it gray. The kids are paid, and then make more money for the school and shoecos. It's business. It's only bad if you think these kids should be exploited, and work for free.

But like @mayjay said I don't think she was interested in working. :joy:

HighEliteMajor said:

@BShark Ok, if KU gets Ms. Preston a job with a local bank, and she's paid $120,000 per year. That's not a violation? Of course, extreme example. But extremes demonstrate the point sometimes.

I am assuming that KU setting a parent up with a job, with a third party, would be a violation of NCAA rules. Do you have info to the contrary?

If the job doesn't grossly overpay for the work being done, then it's fine.

@HighEliteMajor That's not what I said. We were talking about something legal, setting up a parent with a job.

JayHawkFanToo said:

@mayjay

40+ years ago...I had not even been to Kansas; I knew it had to be a long time ago when KSU was pretty good in basketball and sucked in football.

:o

HighEliteMajor said:

Reminder, the hiring of Ed Manning and Ronnie Chalmers was not prohibited by NCAA rules.

Lots of stuff KU does isn't.

Hell I wish KU would do more stuff like that instead of going after high risk targets like Preston. If Preston/his mom never take the shoe money and instead KU sets up Nicole with a job somewhere, then Billy plays and there is no issue.

Rockets defense is in playoff form already I see.

Yeah, having Ronnie Chalmers be the DBO was part of getting Mario. WORTH IT btw.

Kcmatt7 said:

@BShark I could totally see a scenario where Rick Barnes is like actually a boy scout. But like so naive (or maybe its ignorance) that things are going on behind his back he thinks he's clean lol.

I mean imagine what Texas boosters were doing behind his back for him. And Nike. But he probably thinks he didn't have recruits put in his pocket lol.

Hmm, I could buy that. Texas definitely pays though, I have zero doubt about that.

There is a Butch Jones rumor circulating.

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@BShark yes

Yeah, that's a bit silly coming from him considering Durant and the recruiting hauls Tennessee is getting lately.

@Crimsonorblue22 Is that from Barnes? Lol if so.

BeddieKU23 said:

Larry Bird Jr finally won something

Maybe now he can beat KU once in his career. Wouldn't bank on it though.

I don't think the defense will be convicted fwiw. I think they created much more than reasonable doubt. I'm not sure how a jury could come back with a guilty verdict but we will see.

@HighEliteMajor Lately some high profile guys like Shaq, Jay Williams etc.. have come out and said they were paid. Maybe they didn't want to before so that the school wouldn't be punished but with everything out there now, they felt like saying it. I don't know their thought process, of course.

A lot of the ways where schools de facto pay players are not only legal but are fine via NCAA rules as well. Setting up jobs for the parents of players isn't particularly against the rules. Ultimately those parents are still doing the work that the job requires, one would assume. The housing deals might be a bit more gray, I'm certainly not an expert on NCAA bylaws.

JayHawkFanToo said:

@Woodrow

Two K-Staters in the first team; I can't think of 2 Kansas State player being named to the first team in a long time. In their one year together Beasley made first team and was the conference POY but Walker only made All- Big 12 third team.

With this stable of horses Bruce will surely win the league!

@HighEliteMajor The NCAA doesn't even actually care when schools break the "rules", as long as it's done in the dark. They have shown this repeatedly with their actions. Duke has been caught with their hand in the cookie jar more than once, and approximately nothing happened each time. At the end of the day, they are going to protect their money makers.

The sham of "amateur athletics" and "non-profit" is only there to trick people. I'd say it doesn't work, but you seem to subscribe to it based on your words here. You are right we have had these conversations before. Would you still try to argue that these players don't have value beyond a scholarship?

Also nothing to do with paying players is illegal. It has nothing to do with the law. It's just against NCAA rules, which, again are not really enforced to begin with.

I would agree with you that Self is paid by Adidas. So obviously, Adidas is going to want to get good players sent his way so that he can continue winning, which sells Adidas apparel.

In your theoretical situation, Self doesn't get enough good players to compete, imo. I think you might be surprised that all KU players are paid. It's not just players like Wiggins, Josh, Diallo, Selby, Cliff, Silvio etc... It's Frank, Devonte, Perry, Cole, TRob, Releford, Reed, Taylor etc... Basically any player that has been on scholarship at KU in the last 30+ years. Roy and Larry weren't clean either. Hell, Wilt didn't turn down pro money to play in Lawrence for free. It's been pay for play for a long time. Maybe not as widespread, and the shoecos are relatively new (90s) but the money has always been there for those that want it.

An interesting question would be, what IF the money wasn't there? I think you would actually see these kids take a year in Europe, Australia etc... but since the money is there they prefer staying in the country.

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Someone on the Phog actually put it quite well. I know some here don't check there, so I am going to copypaste it. I would generally agree with all of this.

"Take the Zion conversation. There are three parts to that. The occupation part. Well, that's on KU's staff and boosters. We've been doing that for years (Angel Morris immediately comes to mind). The same Lawrence townie takes care of the housing too. That's an open secret and not news---I'm sure there's a paper trail of an application, interview, etc. If it's news to you, you just haven't been paying attention.

It's the paying them cash thing that's really the issue here. I would be shocked if there's a single bit of evidence of KU staff member talking logistics or amounts of cash, from an apparel company or any other source. In fact, I'm confident there's not because if there was, the FBI would have indicted that coach too. Do they know it happens? Sure, again, in a general sense. Do they have a specific knowledge of how much or when or even who? No. And, if they do come across that knowledge (i.e. Preston), they bite the bullet and sit the player.

Some people may say that's all dirty and they should be fired. And maybe it is. But I'm totally okay with that level of cleanliness. I haven't seen anything yet to lead me to believe it's any different. So, while I would prefer that this stuff had never seen the light of day, it doesn't really change my opinion about the whole ordeal...yet."

As a follow-up on the walk-on thing. The walk-ons are part of the team, and live in the same area as the rest of the players. Elijah Elliott's dad has a ton of money, and his kid, a walk-on, took visits to KU, Arizona and UK. It certainly never hurts to have walk-ons with wealthy parents. Those kids are going to have lots of money, and, you know, probably spend it with their friends.

mayjay said:

Question: If everyone does it, and if everyone knows it, why hasn't the NCAA changed its rules to simply allow more compensation and level the playing field? The periodic scandals do not do the sport any good.

I would say they want it in the dark to maintain the facade of amateur athletics. More people stay happy this way and the players still get paid if they want to.