🏀 KuBuckets Archive

@BigBad Dead-on correct. Women are clamoring in sports for equal pay without regard to the fact that in most every instance, their product does not generate the same revenue as men. But it is so unfair ...

@Dylans Inescapable logic you offer there. I will certainly plagiarize in later discussions without any credit to my source. I was an unpaid intern, hated the idea of being unpaid (not looking big picture), but stuck with it based on some good advice, worked three part time jobs (like many others, and the internship paid off greatly in creating my career opportunity. But it was so unfair ...

jayballer73 said:

Interesting Article. - - Rep Ward states that Kansas has been a state that normally defers with for the better or worse with the NCAA.

THAT'S the problem . People been deferring to these fricken idiots way to long -- It's time for Universities to stand up to these morons - -act like you got a pair - Enough is enough.

Why shouldn't these kids get paid SOMETHING - -like the article states - -it's very unfair the way things are right now - the amount of money these other people make off these kids when they are playing ball. - -It also says about Coach's being able to make money off endorsements - -just not right.- - Ward talks and says the NCAA is about 10 years behind the learning curve - -totally agree - - wake up idiots - it's 2019 NOT 1929.

I can totally see why Kansas wouldn't adopt this , agree to this - - THIS State never likes change - -just totally lost on a lot of things - -like he says he would need 61 votes of support from the House and 21 from the Senate. - - That's not happening - - not in this State - -let's just keep deferring , ya that's the answer - -just Unreal.

I agree with Les , with California passing this it's going to make a very uneven playing/recruiting field till somebody does Something. - -The NCAA has reached it's limit - it's time to finally let them know - -you know what - - enough is enough

So, just because the NCAA makes money off the kids and you think it is unfair, we should change the rules? I know, I know, other's have money, make money, earn money, create, and it's unfair if others can't take it. I get it. Workers of the world unite.

So you refer to those that oppose the bill as "morons" and "idiots." Cool.

@Kcmatt7 You said, "Players add value, and I cannot find one major reason why we should keep them from capturing it."

One MAJOR reason - The players don't own the NCAA or the colleges. That's about as major as it gets. The same reason I can't come and sleep in your house -- you OWN it. But that doesn't matter to you or others. You ignore the obvious, most important consideration in our economy. OWNERS MAKE RULES ON PRODUCTS THEY OWN. It doesn't matter that the players don't OWN the product to you. Your mindset continues to be, take what others have created. It's the same mindset of those wanting to pay McDonald's employees $15 an hour when anyone can do the job (ignoring the market value of the services). But more importantly, you and others (on a certain side of the political isle) devalue ownership of business, risk, investment, creation of product, etc. It's as if because it has been created, it should be shared. Why is this continually ignored by posters? Because it is an undeniable yet inconvenient truth. Or, more easy, because life is unfair.

The market value of the players' services is evidenced by no market for the players' services that is better than what the NCAA/Colleges own (other than what we see -- overseas, sub-leagues, etc.).

Folks won't pay for inferior products that EXCEPT because of the ties to the schools I've mentioned.

It's pretty obvious. You use the Kleinmann example. Right. If I were an autograph seeker, and I'm not, but I'd rather have Sherron Collins than Klienmann. This position of yours and others is related to making a major shift in rules nearly exclusively for those top tier guys. And, further, ignoring all the other sports -- golf, tennis, rowing, etc. No one wants anything from them. So it's the top tier.

You point to Alabama vs. KU. Ok, great. You take the top Power 5 program vs. perhaps a bottom 5 program. But how many other schools pack their stadiums regardless of product? But the macro product is not what I'm focused on.

The interchangeability is related to that particular school. Sure, I agree. Bama's overall group of players are better than KU's. And they add value to Bama vs. KU. Conceded.

But my point is that regardless of the individual identity of the player in the helmet, folks support the team. Now, that player has to be good or comparable, but assuming that fact, as we've seen at KU, we support them regardless of their identity BECAUSE they are a Jayhawk. This is really undeniable. As mentioned, Collins, TT, Tharpe, EJ, etc. Didn't matter. (Yes, even Tharpe). That's different than the overall product you cite. I'm focusing on this individual value, individual likeness stuff.

Another irrefutable point -- the players' individual likeness has little value without the benefit of that university connection. This is in direct contrast to other minor leagues. Those teams don't create marketing value for the player to any real extent.

*Of course, the free market argument can be used to claim that schools should just bid on players, that such an arrangement is truly "free market." That's an entirely different animal and different debate. That's professional sports to a certain degree (though even leagues like MLB where it's free bidding, no cap, there are major rules as to when a team's control of a player would end). There are legal arguments that could be made (they have been tried). But the NCAA model stands. It is an entity that can make its own rules for participation -- much like McDonalds. Professional sports (NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL) owners, as a group, can make their own rules. The NCAA, though slightly different, is in the same boat. The NCAA can make their own rules for participation.

Texas Hawk 10 said:

@HighEliteMajor The issue at hand and why people are pushing for rules changes are because the NCAA either cannot or will not enforce their own rules fairly.

Having the NCAA meet with representatives from every level of member schools from P5, mid major conferences, FCS, D2, and D3 schools to come up with a system that the NCAA is capable of enforcing fairly across the board is something that needs to happen.

The fact is the current system is broken and your suggestion to do nothing doesn't fix a broken system. It doesn't have to be radical changes, but there do need to be changes made so the NCAA can enforce their rules.

No, that’s not “why.” The reason why is some folks want athletes to be paid. That is the constant drum beat.

My suggestion to do nothing relates to the idiotic path of compensation and permitting players to market themselves. The players deserve nothing, zero, beyond their scholarship and related benefits. This is different than the issue of enforcement (other than it will create more of an enforcement nightmare).

You switched topics. Your first post, the one I replied to, was related to permitting players to market themselves. Your post said nothing about "enforcement." You then, in your response to my reply here, get into the claim that the NCAA doesn’t enforce their rules fairly.

And of course we break the rules, lie about it, and we of course need to revamp enforcement (because we're targeted). How about we run a clean program?

dylans said:

@bskeet I think they are totally interchangeable. They have to be. Every 5 years it’s total turnover. Every year has a new 1 recruit. Every year has 40-50 guys getting drafted. Every year a kid gets hyped up. Every 5-10 years you get a Zion/Wiggins/LeBron level of hype. Every year KU has a nearly full roster after losing guys.

Right. It’s proven already that the parts are interchangeable. That’s the system as it exists. Constant roster turnover.

@BSkeet I don’t suggest players are unrecognizable, just interchangeable. From Collins, to TT, to EJ, to Tharpe, to Mason, to Graham, to Dotson. 10 seasons, seven PGs. There are better players in the D-league. But no packed arenas, no massive team gear sales, no big TV contracts, no sports center highlights, etc.

Anyone can leave the NCAA. If the California schools wanted to leave, they would have left. The schools are against it.

Here is a Pac-12 statement. A touch similar to things heard here -

The Pac-12 said Monday in a statement that it is "disappointed" in the passage of the bill because the conference believes it "will have very significant negative consequences for our student-athletes and broader universities in California."

"This legislation will lead to the professionalization of college sports and many unintended consequences related to this professionalism, imposes a state law that conflicts with national rules, will blur the lines for how California universities recruit student-athletes and compete nationally, and will likely reduce resources and opportunities for student-athletes in Olympic sports and have a negative disparate impact on female student-athletes," the Pac-12 said in its statement.

"Our universities have led important student-athlete reform over the past years, but firmly believe all reforms must treat our student-athletes as students pursuing an education, and not as professional athletes. We will work with our universities to determine next steps and ensure continuing support for our student-athletes."

@Texas-Hawk-10 If you're going that route, you're right. But everyone who supports this concept should really rethink it. More rules. More enforcement. Enforcement is much, much tougher as there are shades of grey -- meaning as you move from nothing to something.

But really, the "why not" is easier than just more rules -- the same folks that want this will always want more. Some simple, common sense rules as mentioned above won't be good enough. It will never stop. WE KNOW THAT. The rules set by the NCAA will always be unjust to those with that mindset. "Look at what the NCAA brings in" will always be the mantra. Profiting off the athlete be continue to cause incessant whining (no matter how illogical). The revenue point will always be way too high for some, compared to what the athlete (student-athlete) receives.

Many folks want the CBB and CFB model destroyed. So it will never be enough.

The easiest and better thing to do is just say no. Nothing. Period. This is the gamble the NCAA needs to take. Nothing. Don't come. Don't play.

And guess what? They'll still come. And they'll still play.

@dylans @bcjayhawk Bingo. This is what I've been focused on (among other things) for quite some time. It is the jersey, the uniform, the school, the program, and everything that goes with it that makes CBB and CFB what it is. Otherwise, they're A, AA and AAA baseball players (but for just a few). The colleges are the marketable product. THE PLAYERS ARE INTERCHANGEABLE AT THIS LEVEL.

But we know what will happen. If they do this "marketing of their image", it will be so unfair that the players can't use the colleges' images (logo, etc). They'll complain about that.

Of course, it creates yet another massive enforcement headache and will change the college sports, lurching college sports further away from what we love.

@BeddieKU23 The last two sentences were the most important.

1. “I assure you that if we've made mistakes, we'll correct them and move on.” — This is the FIRST acknowledgment of any possible wrongdoing I have seen. Has anyone seen anything else? A KU official mentioning “mistakes.”

2. “But I guarantee you we're running our program the right way." — This is present tense, not past tense. I think that is significant.

I also saw the words “honesty and integrity” used together again. Not sure we’ll ever know what he means by that. Except that he used the words "we" -- that includes him (Long), and did not use past tense.

And here I thought the players had no choice but to play CBB.

Marco said:

HighEliteMajor said:

I'm trying to be respectful here. But you don't understand what qualifies as proof. You seem to think there has to be a video, or a document that "convicts."

So the perspective is considered, folks go to jail based on eyewitness testimony. The go to jail based on circumstantial evidence. You need to get past the opinion that there is no evidence.

For example -

TJ Gassnola testified under oath in a federal trial that he provided money to Preston and SDS. Testimony under oath is "proof." Maybe not what you feel sufficient, but certainly sufficient in a court of law (and the low end stuff like NCAA enforcement). His level of credibility is extremely high because 1) Federal prosecutors put him on the stand in a high profile case, and 2) they would have vetted his claims related to his plea deal. Not to mention that his testimony helped lead to convictions, and his own actions led to a plea. KU presumably says they had no knowledge of it. So KU can't deny it. KU undeniably sought Adidas' help and intervention with recruits. The texting demonstrates that on its on, but that part isn't denied anyway. Thus those actors, whom KU solicited for help, broke NCAA rules assisting KU in recruiting.

You also seem to think that because others are corrupt, KU can't be punished. Don't you think others have tutors that do the work for players like MU did? Or that booster give money to recruits like happened with BYU? They got punished, right?

The NCAA, like law enforcement, can only act on the info they have. Meaning, sure, others may be smuggling drugs but they don't defer punishing those they catch because others are doing the same thing and not getting caught.

If you refuse to acknowledge or understand the above, I can't help you.

As we sit here, we don't know what the NCAA will do. I hope you're right on the punishment. I fear a bad result. But I hope other factors weigh here and the NCAA wimps out (selfishly). I've felt from the start that if we get hammered, we should "burn it down." That is, give the NCAA all the info we know on other schools, etc. Who knows, that might be going on behind closed doors. I would certainly, if I were KU, consider that negotiating strategy in advance to get a slap on the wrist.

I hear your every point, and - whatever the case may be the MCAA needs to weap

You are preaching to the choir, my man. I haven't been to confession in years, and really don't want to go.

I'm glad you're now part of the choir because you were quite clear in your thoughts that the NCAA had nothing, not a "shred" of proof, "hearsay and innuendo", etc. Anyway, this sucks for all of us.

Well, would this not indicate that KU is now NOT under a 90 day deadline to reply?

The NCAA is suspending its deadlines for schools to respond to charges levied by the governing body in the wake of college basketball's corruption scandal. In a letter obtained by The Associated Press in a public-records request, infractions committee member Carol Cartwright wrote NCAA vice president of enforcement Jon Duncan last week to say the committee "will not act" on cases until Nov. 20. She also wrote that all "briefing deadlines" are on hold during that time, such as the 90 days schools or individuals have to respond to charges outlined in a Notice of Allegations (NOA). NC State and Kansas both face discipline from the NCAA after being named in a federal criminal case involving improper payments to recruits and their families, which grew out of an FBI investigation into apparel company Adidas. Sources have told ESPN that NCAA investigations are also underway at Arizona, Auburn, Creighton, Louisville, LSU and USC.

@drgnslayr You just asked the question of the day. It can't be viewed as anything but negative.

One major point that I think we have not discussed is the process here. This is a private organization. They have internal rules. We are now guilty. Meaning, when the NCAA gives out a NOA, that means they've found you guilty based on what they have. The school is then placed in the position of having to prove its innocence, or mitigate the conclusions with other information (thus to my prior points about internal investigations, transparency, reports, acknowledgement -- this should include remedial action, and how we handle it once we get the info). So we're not in a position where the NCAA has to prove anything. They have their info.

And this is what I was trying to get across to one poster in particular prior to this coming out. There is a wealth of info. See the NOA. It's very easy to connect the dots. That's all the NCAA has to do. And stuff we didn't know (or didn't consider). Like Larry Brown. I didn't really think of that. But it's more wood on the pile.

The issue is the treatment of Shoecos. Isn't that really it? Without the linkage (booster designation) between the Shoeco action and KU/Self, this is viewed much differently.

That's where we're in trouble though. The NCAA is linking this. They are saying we're one in the same. It's no different than the guy driving the get away car when his partner kills someone in the bank during a robbery -- the get away driver still gets charged with murder.

What's a cruel twist of logic is that the prosecutors said KU was a victim of Adidas. Now we're the co-conspirator. The private organization is not bound by prosecutorial logic. Even with that, one could argue that Self and the staff were acting against the interests of the monolithic university. But we have talked about all of that here before -- the discussions of how Self could get charged. I mean if he was a co-conspirator with Gassnola/Adidas, as the NCAA seems to conclude here, it would seem the prosecutor could conclude the same thing.

As @drgnslayr correctly points out -- why in God's name was Self texting with this guy? Texting? I guess that's how it works at UNC and Duke. Creating a paper trail, electronic of course. I cannot even image what the failed phone call wiretap would have revealed. I'm sure someone here could have hooked Self up with one of those texting apps.

As @BeddieKU23 said, Gassnola was known fraud. We now know what others knew about him before all of this. And Self was texting with him. About recruits and Gassnola's involvement.

This is connect the dots. It is really easy to do. The NCAA felt it was easy too. And they don't have to do much more. That stinks for us.

I keep coming back to this - If everyone is doing it, then everyone knows, that everyone includes Bill Self, and thus Bill Self has blatantly lied. The everyone could be a limited definition, say just the top 15ish programs. Or a broad definition. Doesn't matter. We're part of "everyone" as a top program. "Doing it" would be the shoeco folks (Nike, Adidas, UA) providing benefits for kids to attend certain schools.

But if everyone isn't doing it, then we're still left with allegations that no one is really denying -- we're only suggesting that we shouldn't be punished for the allegations related to Gassnola/Adidas.

What am I missing here?

If those are the two choices, neither choice seems to end well.

How is it not a choice between the two.

@BeddieKU23 @dylans I would be shocked if Long turns on Self. I firmly believe that Long would not have his job except for Self's approval. I would suspect that Self required him to kiss the ring prior to his hiring. The issue is not Long in my opinion. It's the Chancellor, board of regents, egg-heads. Those are the folks that could turn on him pretty easily. Get focused like I did on "honesty and integrity." Sometimes that is a real consideration. From folks in the proverbial ivory towers, I doubt their sincerity .. always. Of course, Long could see the opening to be more powerful here and turn on Self in part because of that. The consolidation of power thing.

And we know that only one person in the room profits from KU getting sanctioned. Mr. Long. I'd like to know the brain surgeon that put that deal together. But from Long's end, he has the perfect storm -- I didn't do it, I get more money, and I can remove the King. Not saying it happens or that Long even thinks that way. Just discussion.

@Kcmatt7 That's an awesome post ... of PHOF dimensions. Great read.

@Woodrow I guess I'm not seeing overreaching by the NCAA. If this were Duke and Nike, I'd think the allegations were reasonable based on what we know. I don't like what I see and I see it as grossly unfair given what we assume other big schools are doing in concert with their shoeco reps. But I've yet to see even a whisper of proof on others.

So what is overreaching in your opinion? Or to everyone else, what does anyone else see as overreaching here?

@Woodrow What would lead you to conclude we will get what amounts to a slap on the wrist?

We should all look at paragraph 5.b. Three athletic department administrators identified red flags/concerns with Gassnola, but the athletic department took no action.

We were led to believe that the vehicle issue with Preston was a big surprise. Not so much. Staff knew he had the vehicle but it was not registered with the athletic department compliance. Paragraph 5.d.

mayjay said:

I think everyone is overreacting with such huge disgust and hysterical comments about tearing down the NCAA. Fat chance. This was inevitable after the court case evidence and the SDS ineligibility findings. And any public statements would likely not have made a whit of difference then or now.

For crying out loud, let it all play out. KU still gets to respond. This is the NCAA indictment stage. No reason to set the self (or Self) destruct mechanism in motion yet. Punishments will be determined later.

And, if anyone wants to abandon ship, no one can blame you. I still might, too, but if so it will be based on what is known and what is proven, not what is rumored, so it will be awhile.

That likely will let me focus on enjoying watching this team play for this year. I have always wanted to be able to watch basketball with fewer distractions anyway.

My last comment on this whole mess until it is resolved. BB is wonderful but I am too old to get that emotionally worked up about things I cannot control.

I can tell you that my "burn it down" suggestion, which I offered up after this came to head last October, has nothing to do with "tearing down the NCAA." It is about building it up.

To threaten to expose the massive wrongdoing of the CBB masses is based on self-preservation, first and foremost. But it also would have the effect of forcing CBB in to a different phase. That the rules actually matter. If info was made public regarding the demands for compensation, the deals known to KU that were made, the extra benefits, where this parent is living and how they paid for the house, etc., that would cut across all of CBB. We'd be in a sea of wrongdoing, not a small little pond with our head sticking up. It would force the NCAA to consider that all of it's major programs would be getting penalties. Thus what kind of precedent would they want to set with KU? And, very importantly, what changes would that force?

And if this is so "pervasive" as everyone seems to think, then it would not be a large task. If it's so pervasive, then Bill Self is a flat out liar. Not just kind of a liar, but a full blown, worst type of liar - the indignant liar. All of this has disturbing implications no matter which way you go.

The "burn it down" suggestion is just a defensive posture, it's leverage, it's a negotiating tactic and would be a real threat to the NCAA and other schools if we are to be singled-out, which seems to be the case. Again, if this is "pervasive", then there must be a wealth of information.

But what do I know?

Also, to make everyone's day, it's the lead story right now at espn.com. And we complain about Duke getting all the headlines.

FarmerJayhawk said:

cragarhawk said:

Sources? I'm with @HighEliteMajor on this one too. It's miraculous that these "sources" are so quiet. Especially in this era where everyone wants something for nothing... Scorned girlfriend, pissed off sibling, pissed off teammate, pissed off transfer, fired coach, basically any player that washed out of pro ball and wants his 15 min of Fame. All the programs, all of them doing it... And yet so few whistle blowers. It's unfathomable. There's literally been more ppl step forward saying our president grabbed their puss 20 years after the fact than there are legitimate "sources" that everyone is doing this

Believe me or not, but I’ve had many conversations with people in this business who know how it works. It’s a matter of gaining people’s trust over time. You can ask people like Ryan Noel, Matt Scott, Andrew Slater, and on down the line about how many players get paid. Their answers will be the same: almost all of them. I can’t get into a lot of specifics on a public board for risk of burning people, but it’s not just pervasive, it’s the norm.

Then the press is not doing their jobs. Not those guys, they're recruiting guys. But if they "know", then Jesse Newell knows, Gary Bedore knows, Matt Tait knows. Where are they?

Until then, until there is real information flowing, it's just conjecture.

But of course, you know what you're saying -- if it is "pervasive" and it is the "norm", then Bill Self is flat out lying.

And to your comments further above regarding and internal investigation and report -- that can help avoid the "lack of institutional control" element. This can help mitigate the damage. Obviously there is no aggravating factor for saying "mean" things. But when you're dealing with human beings, pettiness, you name it, massaging things like this initially vs. name calling, insults, and lies would perhaps offer a better path.

@Bshark Rewind to last October. Try acknowledgement, contrition, commitment to transparency. A full investigation. An in house report. All done without making specific admissions, but noting that issues are pervasive in CBB and we are part of that. The thing is, we KNEW we were guilty then and so did Self, Long, et. al. I just want the embarrassing statements to stop.

@cragarhawk Agreed. Burn it down. Do we have more here that agree now? If we’re getting targeted, then we have a DUTY to clean things up like the NCAA wants, right? The more transparent the better. We need to have the DOSSIER ready.

Bill Self, Oct 23, 2018: “As the leader of the Kansas men’s basketball program, I take pride in my role to operate with integrity and within the NCAA rules, which is a fundamental responsibility of being the head basketball coach.”

@wissox Nothing was ever over or taken care of. Gassnola/Adidas paid Preston to come to KU. Gassnola/Adidas paid DeSousa. DeSousa was ineligible and suspended for one season. We played DeSousa when he was ineligible. And Self and Gassnola were texting like middle school classmates about how Adidas was locking up recruits for us.

@ajvan There were major recruiting violations. While it helps that we didn't play Preston, he was still paid to come to KU. And DeSousa did play of course. He didn't win his appeal. He was still found to be worthy of a one year suspension. He had his guilty sentence reduced, that's all.

@BShark I personally think the responses border on idiocy. Just like Self's statement last October. Just like Self's statement regarding DeSousa's punishment. Just like our AD's prior statements. There are times to be prudent. To choose your words carefully. This crew, well, doesn't do that. Being aggressive with responsive statements triggers "likes" from those that are upset with the NCAA, but the question is whether it serves your ultimate purpose. We can see where our strategy on this has gotten us so far.

https://247sports.com/college/kansas/Article/Bill-Self-blasts-false-narrative-from-NCAA-enforcement-staff-KU-basketball-allegations-136040848/ ↗

A couple good links to read -

http://www.ncaa.org/enforcement/enforcement-process-charging ↗

Second link is one from a while back that referenced KU's odd approach when a lot of this surfaced, again could play into why we're getting hammered.

https://www2.ljworld.com/news/ku/2018/dec/14/ku-struggling-to-explain-why-it-went-into-stand-down-mode-in-investigating-basketball-recruiting-allegations/ ↗

BShark said:

I mentioned this is the other thread, but I am intrigued to see Bill with a full blown bag of rocks.

Hmmm. Bill has to be here to do that.

Crimsonorblue22 said:

So same thing, nothing new, except fb. Hmmm we can fight this.

Well, I think there is. Lack of institutional control. Lack of coach control.

A lack of institutional control is found when the Committee on Infractions determines that major violations occurred and the institution failed to display:

– Adequate compliance measures.

– Appropriate education on those compliance measures.

– Sufficient monitoring to ensure the compliance measures are followed.

– Swift action upon learning of a violation.

Here is the full article -

https://sports.yahoo.com/sources-kansas-basketball-charged-with-multiple-level-1-violations-including-lack-of-institutional-control-210015300.html ↗

From the Athletic as well: Azubuike is averaging 74% on his free throws in practice so far. During the off season, Azuibuike, with the help of the staff, converted to an underhanded, Rick Barry-style of shooting from the line. Self said, "The change has been incredible. We keep wondering to ourselves, 'why didn't we do this sooner'?" In fact, Azubuike paraphrased the age-old thoughts attributed to Albert Einstein, "Insanity is doing the same thing, the same way, and hoping things change."

***Sorry, it's all just a dream. I woke up just as I imagined Marcus Garrett shooting the ball like George Gervin instead of my 7th grade neighbor kid.

@approxinfinity I understand what you're trying to suggest here. I've burned bridges when it's worth it. And just as you suggest, stopped short when it's not worth it.

What makes no sense for me is the scope we're dealing with (numbers of players, programs, and those with knowledge) and the level of importance many place on their disdain for the NCAA (disdain -- hatred is the better word).

Uncovering all this info could also be significantly financially beneficial to the person, or entity, that makes information public.

Regarding scope, there is just nothing from all of these supposed beneficiaries. To your point, there are reviews on Glassdoor, correct? Or other similar sites? Here, nothing.

You are making an assumption that "these people" include a large group of players, families, guardians, etc. But here's what's amazing to me ... even if it's just the top players, still silence?

You've now added the element of hush money (benefits on the way out) that creates a larger web and more culpability.

So player A gets $10,000 to come to KU. After two years, he's pushed out. He's done with CBB. So we pay him to be quiet.

The reality is, economically, he'd need more in hush money than his story is worth to make the deal worth it. So no kid has fished a story to SI, ESPN, etc., and they wouldn't pay? No stories of a kids extorting a university?

Do you realize how many folks are required to keep this under wraps, meaning no posts on twitter, no stray text messages, etc.? It sounds utterly impossible.

Or amazing if true. Like, secrets kept on a scale never known, right? Jimmy the Bull talked. Where's our Jimmy the Bull?

@approxinfinity Think about what we see - Folks hate the NCAA, folks hate coaches. Why? Because their perception is that the NCAA and coaches make way too much money and the players are slaves (or something akin to indentured servitude). While laughable, the vitriol from that perspective creates a much higher degree of motivation than your example or other examples closer in "magnitude" as you mentioned, that might be used as comparison. It's a different animal. Folks are clamoring to change everything about the NCAA. They want to destroy the NCAA. Yet not a peep.

Further, kids get treated wrong by programs. Forced out. It happens. Not a word from their parents, their girlfriend, they roommate, or them. Yet not a peep.

We hear NBA guys talking about the unfairness of the NCAA, even guys like Lebron James that didn't go to college. If they really wanted to tear down the NCAA, exposing the widespread corruption and rule-breaking would be the place to start. Get together a large group of NBA players to detail their "extra benefits". Yet not a peep.

What did Appleton get, or Greene, or Tharpe, or McBride, or Peters, or White, or Adams, or any player that has left this program early for whatever reason? Or that has left UK, Duke, UNC, MSU, etc., for whatever reason? Any aggrieved soul. Yet not a peep.

Odd.

I think the prior references miss my intended point completely. We all know of the big stories. Yea, I know about SMU and Reggie Bush.

But it does demonstrate my point. Discussing maybe one big story a decade? With one back to the 80s?

The constant drum beat is everyone is getting extra benefits. Yet there is nothing.

Where is the information? This is 2019. Info everywhere. Some kid has a video of money "appearing." But with this topic, no one has spilled the beans.

I always come back to this ... where is the book, the 60 minutes or outside the lines special, etc., that details even some of the extra benefits? The coach talking in the shadows with his voice altered? The former shoeco rep? Some players' family members? Former mafia members talk more that these folks.

I think a lot of this is urban legend stuff based on assumptions.

I don’t see how Harris would impact him. Self loves loves playing two PG types. It could be just as easy as he didn’t like it at KU. He may not have felt comfortable here. And that’s cool. If it’s competition, then he truly did us a favor by bailing now.

@Crimsonorblue22 Where did you hear the JJ recruiting is part of this? That would not be good.

@approxinfinity I don't know about the coach suspension. That is usually based on something program related, internal. All of these issues (that we know of) are related to third party action that we relied upon to benefit our program. Of course, Bill Self said very famously, “When recruiting prospective student athletes, my staff and I have not and do not offer improper inducements to them or their families to influence their college decisions, nor are we aware of any third-party involvement to do so."

I said at the time that Self's comment about third parties was very unwise. He should never have said that, true or untrue. When a coach makes such a definitive statement, and if there is evidence in the NCAA's hands that suggests he lied, it might make things a bit more difficult. It creates a bit of a bulls-eye with its audacity, given the info we know. In fact, of course, the concept that Adidas provided benefits and our coach was unaware of that general fact is asinine. I understand that he might not get the detail, but the concept of benefits and that they are taking action to help us get recruits that way is a different story.

My view continues to be that we end up losing the FF, vacating wins (which impacts the Big 12 title for 2017-18), and missing the NCAA tourney for a season. If I had bet on an outcome, that would be my lead scenario. A lot of options including scholarships, missing an additional tournament, or a coach (or coaches) getting suspended.

The facts are easy (despite protests by some that there is no evidence). Preston got paid by Adidas. DeSousa got paid by Adidas and UA. KU played DeSousa, who was found to be ineligible and ultimately suspended for a full season. Self and KU relied upon Adidas for recruiting assistance and Adidas reported directly to Self on progress. Adidas (or TJ Gassnola individually) fits squarely under the definition of a booster in the NCAA rules. The NCAA is keenly focused of the importance of that consideration as they made us stipulate to Adidas as a booster as part of the DeSousa review.

This is not minor. It's serious. Always has been.

And it can get worse. I said way back when this broke that there is a significant possibility that this all leads to Bill Self leaving KU. I know that was met with a bit of a negative response. But this is real. Bill Self has one coaching career. And this remains a huge risk as we move forward. I appreciate Self's comments about commitment to KU, but again, he has one career, he's been here deep into a second decade here. It's a major risk. This sort of upset creates conflict and issues where an AD, or Chancellor, can get cross-wise with Self on any number of issues, including candor. It's how things can go south.

The shine is off Bill Self's star for me. I think he lied when he made that statement back on October 24, 2018. I guess I can live with that. I wouldn't disown my brother for a lie. But I am disappointed and I don't look at him the same way. He could have take a much more measured and contrite approach related to what has happened with his program. I hope we can all, as a program, university, and fans, get through this with our great program intact.

I expect Bill Self to LEAD us out of this. Just like he's led us into it. But I expect him to do it with honest and integrity. Not the stumbling and embarrassing denials of October 24, 2018. Bill Self can turn this around. He really is the right guy to do it. But it starts with him.

From a purely "defend what we have" perspective, and the injustice of others not getting punished when the recruiting game and shoeco involvement is an obvious fact, I've advocated the "burn it down" approach if we are to get slammed. Screw the NCAA. We should warn the NCAA. If they hammer us, we will ensure that information on what has gone on with multiple recruits, from Zion, to Anthony Davis, to Justin Jackson will be exposed. What other schools or shoecos offered or provided. If we knew what Zion wanted, per Townsend, we know what Zion (and others) got. Or, perhaps, they could come down a little lighter on us. Just my thoughts. This can go hand in hand with honesty from our program and coach.

I suspect the 2020 recruiting thread ... might ... slow ... down. And we mocked the offer to the JUCO kid. I feel bad now.

focojayhawk said:

I think we're all missing the larger positive here. The moral fiber of today's high level D-1 basketball player has never been higher. Here we have Kansas offering them bags of cash as well as homes/jobs for their parents and yet instead they're taking the high ground and choosing to go to Duke/Kentucky/Memphis for free. The future is truly bright.

PHOF? This has my vote.

@chriz Yes, they can. See Memphis ‘08, Louisville ‘13.

FarmerJayhawk said:

Posted this in another thread but bears repeating. Harris is better

Reminds me of the dude from Chicago, Milton Doyle. Got here and received a rude awakening. Doyle’s brother got on kusports.com and threatened to pop a cap in me or something like that after some back and forth. They have strict gun control laws in Chicago so I was not worried.

BShark said:

FarmerJayhawk said:

I think worst case scenario is vacating games Silvio played in and some recruiting restrictions. If the NCAA goes much more than that they’ll have to give Zona and NC St. the death penalty

Still beat Duke, I saw it.

If they take away the Duke win, they have to take away the Nova loss. Glass half full, ya know.

@Woodrow The "multiple major violations" is what stands out to me. Excuse me while I go throw up.

My best cut and paste from @FarmerJayhawk's link-

University of Kansas

KU basketball expected to face multiple major violation allegations from NCAA

By Jesse Newelland

Steve Vockrodt

September 20, 2019 03:05 PM,Updated 12 minutes ago University of Kansas Athletic Director Jeff Long talks about the university's 14-year extension with Adidas, amid the NCAA investigation into college basketball recruiting. The NCAA is preparing to issue a notice of allegations that details multiple major violations in the Kansas men’s basketball program, The Star has learned.

The notice will come, sources told The Star, after a summer of speculation following a top NCAA official saying the organization would make findings against schools involved in a pay-for-play recruiting scheme investigated by the FBI.

When asked for comment, Dan Beckler, associate KU athletic director for public relations, told The Star that KU Athletics had not received any notification from the NCAA.

The Star also asked the NCAA for comment.

“Due to member-created rules, we cannot comment on current, pending or potential investigations,” Stacey Osburn, NCAA director of public and media relations, wrote in an email.

On June 12, Stan Wilcox, the NCAA’s vice president of regulatory affairs, said at least six schools would receive a notice of allegations for Level 1 violationsthis summer.

North Carolina State on July 10 received a notice of allegations that included two Level 1 violations.

Level 1 violations carry some of the most severe punishment, including postseason bans and loss of scholarships.

N.C. State and Kansas were among the schools associated with Adidas that were named during the federal investigation.

Former Adidas employee T.J. Gassnola testified in federal court last October that he made payments of $90,000 on behalf of Adidas to the mother of KU basketball player Billy Preston and $2,500 to the guardian of Silvio De Sousa. Gassnola also said he agreed to pay $20,000 to Fenny Falmagne, the guardian of De Sousa, to help Falmagne exit an agreement to send De Sousa to Maryland, an Under Armour school.

Gassnola testified that KU coach Bill Self was not aware of the payments.

As a result of that trial, De Sousa was given a two-year NCAA suspension. Kansas appealed the second year of the punishment and the NCAA reinstated De Sousa, who is allowed to play this upcoming season.

Gassnola avoided prison time and was sentenced to probation.

One of KU’s NCAA issues could be Gassnola’s relationship to Self and assistant Kurtis Townsend as revealed in court.

Text messages showed that during the time KU was recruiting De Sousa, KU coaches were aware that Gassnola was in contact with De Sousa’s guardian, Fenny Falmagne.

Gassnola testified that Townsend asked him to contact De Sousa’s guardian. Falmagne told The Star he wanted to see if Adidas would send gear it didn’t need to Angola’s national team.

Third parties and/or boosters are not allowed to provide anything with monetary value to a recruit or the recruit’s family or guardian. It is possible the NCAA deems it inappropriate for Townsend to ask Gassnola to send gear to Angola.

ESPN recently reported that NCAA investigators in addition to N.C. State were working on cases at KU, Arizona, Auburn, Creighton, Louisville, LSU and USC.

When a school such as KU receives a notice of allegations, the university has 90 days to respond. The NCAA has granted extensions to schools in the past.

The school response then is sent to an NCAA enforcement committee. That committee has 60 days to file a reply and a “statement of the case.”

Next, a hearing date is scheduled with the NCAA Committee on Infractions. At that hearing, the university is allowed to present its case with an NCAA ruling to follow. The ruling could take several months to reach.

If a school is assessed penalties, it has the opportunity to appeal.

The Star’s Gary Bedore contributed to this report

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@HighEliteMajor Fleetwood Mac sounds better

Stevie Nicks was always great .. always a little partial to Joan Jett though.

A notice of allegations, yes, would be bad. We heard two months ago that the letters would be coming. This seems like reasonable time for that phase. But rumors ...

BShark said:

Bad rumours are swirling.

I love the spelling on "rumours" -- like a Fleetwood Mac album or something.

Any money he earns is going to reduce his social security though, right?

I kind of feel comfortable. Self always pulls stuff out in the spring. We have a roster that has good depth going forward. All is good.

-------------uh, if there wasn't this unknown dark cloud looming.

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@kjayhawks it's not about money to me, I get it. My mom won't get in rural KS, and most of that generation. I can't believe a top 10 ten team will probably only have 2 teams watching us. Duke, Kentucky, MSU they have to stream their games? Recruits gonna love this idea? I think this is a big step down for our program.

Completely agree.

I'm trying to be respectful here. But you don't understand what qualifies as proof. You seem to think there has to be a video, or a document that "convicts."

So the perspective is considered, folks go to jail based on eyewitness testimony. The go to jail based on circumstantial evidence. You need to get past the opinion that there is no evidence.

For example -

TJ Gassnola testified under oath in a federal trial that he provided money to Preston and SDS. Testimony under oath is "proof." Maybe not what you feel sufficient, but certainly sufficient in a court of law (and the low end stuff like NCAA enforcement). His level of credibility is extremely high because 1) Federal prosecutors put him on the stand in a high profile case, and 2) they would have vetted his claims related to his plea deal. Not to mention that his testimony helped lead to convictions, and his own actions led to a plea. KU presumably says they had no knowledge of it. So KU can't deny it. KU undeniably sought Adidas' help and intervention with recruits. The texting demonstrates that on its on, but that part isn't denied anyway. Thus those actors, whom KU solicited for help, broke NCAA rules assisting KU in recruiting.

You also seem to think that because others are corrupt, KU can't be punished. Don't you think others have tutors that do the work for players like MU did? Or that booster give money to recruits like happened with BYU? They got punished, right?

The NCAA, like law enforcement, can only act on the info they have. Meaning, sure, others may be smuggling drugs but they don't defer punishing those they catch because others are doing the same thing and not getting caught.

If you refuse to acknowledge or understand the above, I can't help you.

As we sit here, we don't know what the NCAA will do. I hope you're right on the punishment. I fear a bad result. But I hope other factors weigh here and the NCAA wimps out (selfishly). I've felt from the start that if we get hammered, we should "burn it down." That is, give the NCAA all the info we know on other schools, etc. Who knows, that might be going on behind closed doors. I would certainly, if I were KU, consider that negotiating strategy in advance to get a slap on the wrist.

dylans said:

FWIW If the xfl gains traction, they are talking about drafting HS players.

And that, my friends, is the answer. Competition. Take players from the NCAA. That will demonstrate the value of the NCAA. But it will also allow kids that are worthy to make money. I am all for that of course. Same reason I was in support of the alternative pro basketball league that was discussed. Same reason I support kids skipping college to play overseas. College sports are a choice.

The contrast here highlights the issue.

Trying to change the rules of an existing entity, regardless of what might result. Folks don't care what results from their desired change in rules. They just want their way.

These complaints about the "system" are never ending. The comparison to golf and tennis is interesting, thought it is a bit apples and oranges. But those players CHOOSE to turn pro and not play NCAA sports. Right? And when they choose the NCAA, they can't market themselves.

And @justanotherfan makes a completely untrue statement. He says, "The only reason that’s not true for basketball and football stars is because we have put a system in place that prevents them from doing so prior to a certain age."

There is no system that prevents the players from marketing themselves. What prevents them from marketing themselves is CHOICE. They choose not to market themselves, take endorsement deals, etc., by CHOICE. They choose to play NCAA sports. To take benefits and opportunity vs. marketing themselves.

It is this art of dodging the important point that we continue to see. No, it's not CHOICE, it's always the SYSTEM we hear. That's purposefully ignoring the inconvenient truth.

The "system" is competition and the free market. Why doesn't @justanotherfan start a pro league for the teenage football stars? Why would he? It would fold and not be profitable. He'd lose his money. Why? Because the teenage athletes aren't marketable in Football against the professional football players. Why would someone pay to see that?

Oh, but they do -- NCAA football. Why? Not the athlete. They are disposable. In and out. It's the university, the program, the tie to that culture. Plain and obvious. It's KU, not Frank Mason. It's OU, not Baker Mayfield. College sports are minor leagues, but for the tie to the Universities, Allen Field House, the facilities, the PROGRAM. There's much better players in the D-League.

If the BB and FB players were so marketable, and of such value, why wouldn't Nike offer a kid $2 million out of high school to skip college and go with Nike?

Why? Because NCAA platform increases the players name recognition and value. That's why. Period. Nike would rather Zion go to Duke. And it makes Zion worth more overall for marketing purposes, Nike or otherwise.

Jalen Green isn't worth crap. What can he market? Who would even care? If he can't play basketball on a big stage, what is he?

Ah, and if he's more than that, then we get back to the CHOICE thing.

Right, @justanotherfan wants to rules to change, a change that would benefit just a select few, and be damned the college baseball player, the soccer player, the lacrosse athlete, the rower. No, we want our precious, highly ranked inner city basketball player to be able to get a few extra bucks because, you know, it's unfair. That system is holding him back. Just laughable.