Fran also said today Vick would not be back ...
HighEliteMajor
5416 posts
Do we want to win games, or play Grimes? It's really that simple. KJ was the superior player today. Garrett will be the superior player when he returns. It's mid-February.
Grimes needs to come off the bench. Period. This isn't even a question now. If he would be permanently damaged because he's so fragile psychologically, or he'd transfer, or whatever, so what.
This is the most flexible, softest I've seen Self with a player (not sure of the right term). But it's not patience. This isn't patience. It's something a little twisted ... a sadomasochistic patience. Painful to all involved.
If Grimes' switch goes on in a few weeks, this will be the most impressive bit of "letting a player develop" I've ever seen.
I love the idea of letting a player develop. But I'm not seeing any hints of development or progress. Am I wrong?
And I'm really liking Dave/Mitch at the 5, as well (@kjayhawks). Lot of activity. And man, we say this a lot, but Mitch is incredible blocking shots. He's one of the best I've ever seen.
@Texas-Hawk-10 A huge question is whether there is some other motivation behind targeting Adidas. This is big money and Adidas is Nike’s biggest competitor in the CBB realm. Could the prosecution/FBI be swayed by some political force in such a manner?
This willl be answered if we see Duke, UK, UNC in this too. What better “lead” than the KT audio regarding Zion. Why would not the FBI interview Zion given that info?
Time will tell perhaps.
@approxinfinity Great work, my man. This team was challenging me for a while. I had such high hopes on Vick, that this could be the moment that turned the corner for him. And Doke, DeSousa, and our inside game.
All seemed lost. Then came Agbaji, and Dotson channeling his two predecessors. This pair has truly made this season a new beginning, I think. A passing of the torch.
The NCAA tourney is a weird animal. If it’s the roulette wheel that many suggest, I’ll bet 30 and 11. Spin the wheel, baby!
Again, great post.
Proud to say I really did see this coming with this pair. Could we get two more seasons from both here?
/topic/8172
@Gorilla72 If the NCAA “strips” our FF and leaves the other programs without investigation, we should simply keep the banner raised. Of course, if we get a big sanction, and others are left untouched, I’ve long held we should name names, expose where the bodies are buried, and burn the place down. In fact, we should be telling the NCAA of our plan about right now.
@DanR The old Pony shoes were sweet. I miss Converse most.
I saw Kawhi Leonard has got a shoe for New Balance. They paid some kid lots of money not play CBB, too.
@BeddieKU23 Chemistry is that amazing, non-quantifiable thing that drives team success.
I think we are all very safe in assuming that Vick is a net negative. Did he flat win us some games early? Absolutely. But the TEAM is better moving forward as a TEAM without it.
The fact is, from our team early in the season, guard-wise, Agbaji has replaced Vick -- and he's better than Vick.
Agbaji is easily my favorite player. Just love the kid. Not yet in Mason territory, need some time for that. But moving in that direction.
I just love both he and Dotson, and their humble approach to success on the Court. Very Mason-like.
The question is, what is Garrett's role when he returns?
Self would be making a mistake changing the dynamic right now -- we need to stick with McCormack and Mitch playing, and going with the 3/2 look, with a little KJ mixed in there.
It seems pretty easy then to have a four guard rotation for three spots -- Dotson, Agbaji, Grimes, Garrett -- with Garrett off the bench as Self is committed to Grimes as the starter.
And Vick staying in Memphis.
@truehawk93 When reading bullet point 5, it says two things -- just read the bolded part in each sentence.
Assisted or has been requested by university staff to assist in the recruitment of prospective student-athletes
Assisted or has been requested by university staff to assist in the recruitment of prospective student-athletes
The "or" creates two options.
The "requested" part is one of two options under this bullet point that create a "booster."
I think it is undeniable that Gassnola was a booster under the NCAA rule.
Now, that doesn't get into my firm position that Adidas is a separate entity, Gassnola works for Adidas, Gassnola serves Adidas' corporate interests, etc. That goes to the legal (federal prosecution) part of it. Which is not the NCAA part.
I would also suggest that there is no TJ Gassnola assisting in recruiting if one man, Bill Self, didn't decide that Gassnola's assistance was desired. The buck stops with Bill Self.
@mayjay When looking at bullet point 5, it does not define what assisted means. There is no qualification, either, that there has to be a connection between the party assisting in recruiting and the school.
If I go to a kid I know at the local high school, tell him I want him to go to MU. That I love MU now, and I'm a fan of their BB team. Then I give him $3,000 to go to MU, this fits in bullet point #5. I have assisted in recruiting.
The "or request by university staff to assist" part of bullet point #5 deals with a situation when the school has asked for the help. So that would indicate that first part did not require that request.
I'm just talking plain reading of the language.
@truehawk93 Here's a link. Look at bullet point 5. Gassnola was a booster.
Is there any disagreement from anyone when we look at the rule?
However, one could argue with the loose definition that I could, acting on my own, go help Missouri with recruiting and thus get them in trouble by engaging in conduct against NCAA rules. If I "Assisted ... in the recruitment of prospective student-athletes."
I think the issue becomes one of mitigation -- how much authority did he have to act on our behalf? If he was a rogue booster, like my example, that would certainly help when it came to penalties.
But Gassnola was as deeply embedded as one could be regarding recruiting it appears, short of the David Booth flying in to add some influence to a recruit's decision. Anyone disagree there?
It seems to me that the nature of the booster in question is important. That's where I'm becoming more concerned. Adidas had its hands all over our recruits. The rogue booster argument is not a reasonable mitigator here.
The NCAA has to prove its allegations by something akin to a "clear and convincing" standard proof. I have seen nothing that precludes the NCAA from relying on hearsay. In fact, the conclusions in many investigations rely in part on hearsay. And like any other investigations, conclusions come from all of the evidence, and requires some connecting of dots. Each item of evidence may not have the same impact. But that KT phone call is evidence, for example. It doesn't prove anything standing alone. But it's a piece of the puzzle. Self phone call with Gassnola where the wire tap apparently didn't work. A reasonable person could make some inferences there in light of other evidence.
This is all concerning. If I had to bet on a result -- Vacate the 2018 FF, vacate wins with DeSousa, no tourney in 2020, and loss of a scholarship or two. But this is a pie graph, and there are number possibilities. If the NCAA is now more serious, as the recent actions have indicated, then this seems quite possible.
Why? The nature of our booster. He was intricately involved with our coaches, talked directly to Self on recruits, and was active on our behalf to get multiple recruits. He was in reality an extension of our coaching staff.
This doesn't seem like a hard case to make.
@Fightsongwriter "... as the 2nd half microwave." Nice. Vinnie Johnson references always welcome.
@kjayhawks Come on, and I thought Dedric was the best passer in the history of humanity, I mean since time began, and into all of eternity.
Self said that, right? Or kind of ...?
@dylans I might vote for Simien as the most skilled. Dedric has a bit of three ball game. Tough call there. TRob was the best big man under Self I think. But Dedric has incredible skills and I think it’s between he and Simien there.
@kjayhawks The one I think you mean is the one that starts off with Larry Brown .. "no better place to ..."
The best pregame video ever.
This entire idea of getting Dotson off the ball seems a major possible improvement for our offense. He can still attack. The more opportunities to shoot, the more chances to pump fake and go.
I received a little second hand info last night that Vick apparently used an expletive directed at Self, and said he "quit", after the KSU game. The source, friend of a friend stuff, is supposedly inside the program. But this should obviously just be treated as mere rumor, kept here, and not repeated on social media.
Regardless, It is obvious that we should be extremely skeptical of the vague "leave of absence." If we've known anything of Bill Self, he does a great job of giving his players cover for their indiscretions. There is no value in embarrassing a player.
My point there is, I guess, that unless we have something concrete, I don't think we owe Vick any sympathy or empathy right now. From my view, the presumption is that this is another instance of making one's own bed. All signs point to that.
Heck, there's been a number of obvious issues with him throughout this season.
Self said this last season, after benching Vick and when asked what he meant about his "selfish" comment, " “Thoughts, thoughts. Not carrying out an assignment, not running or executing a play hard because you know it’s not for you, things like that.” Regarding benching Vick last season, Self said, "“I am predicting the guys that start will try harder than the guys that started the last game.”
This clearly seemed to be the issue this week at KSU.
I was very much for his return this season and thought it could be a moment of maturity. A humbling experience. Signs here would strongly suggest that those thoughts were incorrect.
@approxinfinity That’s a PHOF if I’ve ever seen one.
I still can't believe I (and some others) thought that not having Doke in the middle might make for a more productive offense. Idiots we were. This team needed a guy like Doke in the worst way.
Given that relatively obvious observation, it would seem that something inside would help Dedric. Dedric is very limited. Defensively he's a disaster inside. Not his strong suit. But the dude can score if he has a bit of space. Job one. Get him space.
I can say that in all my years, I can't recall dealing with a rude KSU fan or any of that. MU, a different story.
@BeddieKU23 As usual, you make very good points.
I am a big, big believer in playing the guy that will be the best player, letting the talent develop, and work towards having the better talent at the end of the season. My struggle with Grimes is that I'm just not seeing much and I seriously question his effort. That's a lot different than Cliff, or Diallo, or Releford, or Selby, or EJ.
To put this in context, I'd start Jamari Traylor over Grimes right now.
But your points are the pragmatic ones. I understand that may be more rational.
Good point on McCormack's PER in conference play. I think if he was able to play, get his legs under him some, we'd be satisfied with his play. Self seems married to the 4/1 now (which I just don't think matches this team very well).
@BeddieKU23 Just give Grimes a different look off the bench is all. See if something can jump start him.
But I don’t understand why it’s ok then under that theory to banish a McDonald’s AA to the bench in McCormack. Is there some importance about the top 15 thing you think?
MCormack has been better than Grimes.
@joeloveshawks Theory — Adidas paid Grimes. Self knows. Grimes knows Self knows. Leverage. Grimes starts every game. Just a theory to explain the inexplicable.
It seems like the minute we think we have an answer, something screws up that answer.
I do know what we haven't tried -- starting and playing McCormack. I can't say that is the answer. But it is worth a shot at this point. Would work fine in the middle of that 2/3 zone. It is worth a look. But I'm not suggesting it's "the" answer at all. It's an option worth exploring because what we've seen isn't the answer.
@Kcmatt7 So do you then think he's a better coach than Self? That would be a good selling point. He's had success in a better league.
@joeloveshawks And, a little known fact, you can play excellent defense while scoring a lot. It's why Self's statement about giving up points is just ridiculous. It's all relative to possessions. If you score quicker, there will be more possessions. But you can still play good defense. There is not some innate connection.
More possessions is a longer game in a way, meaning there is more of an opportunity for the better team to demonstrate it's dominance. Of course, there's the discussion of bad shots, valuing possessions, etc., that we can't ignore. But scoring the ball frequently creates a greater margin of error.
You can be terrific defensively and give up a higher points per game than a lesser defensive team. Again, it's all relative.
@Kcmatt7 You've just indicted Tony Bennett -- well, in the loose way we've seen recent indictments at least. You brought up FFs.
Tony Bennett, with all the good teams he's supposedly had, he's never made the FF and made just one Elite Eight.
I think his style of play is what Bill Self used to want to do, but a bit more extreme. It's what has held Self back in the past.
It can create regular season success, but when you're offensively challenged, there in a much smaller margin of error -- which is a big deal in a one and done format.
No doubt, an excellent coach.
But I have no desire for this type of approach. I want national titles.
I'd take KU +3.5 in pretty much any game.
Who in their right mind would rather coach Texas CBB than Kansas?
@jayhawkcsg This is red pill stuff. So ditching the crimson and blue colored glasses is a requirement on this topic. I think everyone is there now.
Self boxed himself in with his statement in the fall. I think he could have made a big leap forward with a bit more of hedge -- acknowledging the greasy underbelly of CBB, our role in competing for players, the role of guardians, shoe companies, and leaches, that such relationships were "the game", and pledging that his program would be the vigilant beacon of a new page in CBB. Hell, I was the naive one that truly believed we were above all of that in the first place, because I believed 100% in Bill Self's character.
I sure hope he comes out of this, because I don't think we will ever see a greater coach here at Kansas.
My irritation with his statement has waned a bit. Now it's one of those "close the ranks" deal. Every Jayhawk is a brother.
And I hope he comes out of this so we can jam in the faces of other programs that the NCAA has apparently turned blind eye to, for whatever reason.
Sticking it to the NCAA with a national title would be pretty sweet too.
No on Bennett. What @jayballer73 said.
Like the Musselman mention from @BeddieKU23, but second to Beard in my book.
@tundrahok I'm tellin' ya, when the ball goes in basket, you just don't get a good idea of how good of a team you are. Those darned teams that make shots make everything look good. The best teams are the ones that win when they don't make shots. I mean, there are times when we've played good defense but that other team has just made shots. But we lose. Can't do much about that. But we can't rely on making shots.
Now, the quote to end all quotes, in a game we won 123 - 72:
"I told our guys during the game I’d rather win 50-40 than give up that many points. Because that’s not real.”
That was fun.
I think the entire dynamic with Garrett out is interesting. Garrett is a better basketball player than Charlie Moore. Moore, however, delivered 6 assists in limited time. I felt overall our team defense was pretty good. I paid a lot of attention to Grimes and thought he did better.
My concern is that the environment Tuesday will make us hesitant. And that can cause decisions to become less reactionary. Which can cause a much different offensive result.
If our offense demonstrates many of the qualities we saw Saturday, the narrative of Garrett's overall negative impact on the offense will get more credibility.
I just think the dynamic is interesting. I love Garrett off the bench. But I think Self falls in love (as Self is prone to do) with things other than offense. Garrett is the poster boy for that love fest. And Self, for years, has undervalued the fine art of placing the ball in the hoop on a frequent basis (in favor of other aspects of the game).
A classic. Shag carpet. Disco. Big lapels. Golds and browns. Gas station lines. And the streak.
@jayballer73 I don’t think the appeal does anything. Never heard of an appeal reducing something like this.
@Crimsonorblue22 Unfortunately, I think he loses two seasons of eligibility. So if he stayed, he’d be a senior. That’s how I understand it.
@Bwag I think he called a play, but I doubt it was Charlie taking a 25 footer with 7 seconds left.
Maybe he took what Devonte said in his pregame talk to the team a little too literally -
Devonte’ told them, ‘We never passed up shots. I watched you guys, and guys pass them up all the time. I don’t care what coach says, shoot the ball,'”
@mayjay Another "target" I had thought of was the NCAA model. A political motivation. I just can't imagine though that this sort of prosecution is solely designed to prosecute a few underlings in this swamp.
@Crimsonorblue22 This was underhanded I think. I have never seen anything (nor every heard of anything) that requires an admission such as this. To admit that the employee of a third party (a shoe company in this case) was acting as a booster, and not as focusing on his duties as employee of Adidas, is outrageous to me. He was acting for Adidas. He could not care less if it was KU or Cal Poly Tech. Insert the name. It was a college that promoted Adidas best. That is much different than a booster -- the guy that donates to the program, etc.
DeSousa remains on scholarship. We can give scholarships to ineligible players. So this talk about this only hurting the player and others skating is baloney. DeSousa can't play basketball. KU can't have him play basketball. Both are hurt. But DeSousa still gets the free education if he wants it (at least this season).
@mayjay With that, how quickly do dots get connected to the top of the food chain? How could Self be ignorant of all of this if that's really the narrative? I keep thinking of his statement after the verdict.
And I know you'll remember me mentioning this -- I have felt from the start of the prosecution that the real target is the big fish, the pristine leader, Bil Self. Prosecutors love bringing such folks down. The higher the mountain, the harder the fall.
How this would all work between the FBI and NCAA and KU, I don't know. But the former seem to be working together a bit, and much to our detriment.
@KUSTEVE You truly never know the motives of individuals. The insecurities. Or what is in their head.
This also goes back a bit to one of my thoughts -- if the NCAA hits our program hard, we should burn it down. Name names, give info, let everyone know where the bodies are buried. We certainly know what Zion got. I'm sure we know quite a bit. I'm sure we can make everyone very uncomfortable. Maybe we tell the NCAA that if they come at us hard, we're not going to roll over and take it.
Of course, I really don't know how this leverage game works internally. KU, NCAA, etc. There may be other things going on that make this implausible.
But I do wonder ...
@Crimsonorblue22 He's spit ballin' too. Just theorizing. I would seriously doubt it. But you never know. It's worth considering. What do you think about the fact that Long benefits from NCAA sanctions?
I think that contract provision is just ridiculous. You allow an employee to gain more compensation for a negative result? A result that he has his hands on, management wise?
Again, I trust his integrity I guess. But folks have done far worse for more money.
And I think @kjayhawks is right. Attorneys have their hands all over this.
But are these the same attorneys that let Self go out and give that silly statement after the trial verdict? That was not written by a (competent) lawyer.
@KUSTEVE I mentioned the word "foreboding" the other day. It does feel that way. I will be surprised if the penalty is less than 1) Vacate FF and wins that DeSousa participated in, 2) No tourney in 2019-20, and 3) a loss of a scholarship or two.
And I know you were a bit upset with me when I said this a while back, but this path is why I have feared that our coach might leave. I wonder if the NCAA comes after Self, what they may know, and what Self's reaction might be. Regardless of any of that, a normal person might say he can enjoy life better away from such hassles.
@kjayhawks You're right, he did inherit this. We just don't know how he steered the ship, or his role, after arriving. We only know what we hear.
@KUSTEVE One thing to consider. In legal proceedings, there is a process for a Motion to Dismiss. That is at an early stage. But to get the dismissal, you have to assume the allegations of the other side to be true, and thus the judge would rule that the case cannot proceed even on the alleged facts. That may be a bit of what's going on here. KU wanted a resolution. So to do so, they had to accept the concept of Gassnola being a booster. Essentially, assuming the worst case fact scenario, can we get him reinstated? If Gassnola is really a booster?
That an attempt to provide a possible explanation.
That aside, you don't do that when the adversary can use the admission against you, just as it appears that they did. That is very hard for me to fathom. Now, what I don't know for sure is if the NCAA used that "admission" against us, or if they made that independent determination.
If they did use the admission against us, I'm not quite sure what to say at this point.
Why would we have to make such an admission if it could be the dagger that delivers the death shot?
Long called a it hypothetical. It's not a hypothetical if the "admission" is used against you.
Again, this is just spit ballin' a bit.
When this first came out and read the NCAA statement, I didn't comprehend that Gassnola and the "booster" were one in the same.
@BShark @BeddieKU23 Today, I strongly thought we'd win. I rarely have strong beliefs on such things but today seemed like the right convergence. Further, it is quite amazing that we were able to win without Garrett (a bit tongue in cheek there). Our offense looked better today than it has in a long time. I'm not connecting that to Garrett being out, but if Garrett would have played, who wouldn't have started (and how would that have impacted the first 5-6 minutes). Charlie Moore played ok, too -- kind of shot hunting there, particularly the one at the end of the half. I couple of those defensive chances were a bit humorous though.
@KUSTEVE Did you know that our AD actually benefits from KU going on probation? Here's the provision -
"Should the University be placed under any federal, state, NCAA, or Conference investigation leading to restrictions or probation for its football, men's basketball, women's basketball or women's volleyball athletic programs for matters occurring prior to the Effective Date of the Executive, the term of the contract shall be extended equal to the length of the penalties."
@Crimsonorblue22 Grimes would be the 4th guard, coming in off the bench. Grimes handles it ok. It's just not a good situation right now handling the ball when Dotson's out.
@Texas-Hawk-10 The turnover percentage stat can of course be deceiving if someone isn't a ball handler when comparing to a ball handler. But Moore has handled the ball a good chunk of his time on the court. I think this is a really good point. That might sway Self. Depends on what he wants. Also, if we see Moore in late, perhaps, handling the ball, that may be why. Interestingly, Garrett's turnover rate is pretty good too.
@BShark I realize Moore can handle the ball a bit, but I would not play him. I'd roll the dice with the ball in any of the other guard's hands while Dotson is resting/out. Moore's PER is 6.6 in 256 minutes. He is maybe the worst player Self has played significant minutes. Of course, a blind squirrel can find a nut here and there. Never know.
This is the perfect day to change things up -- start McCormack, Dedric, Vick, Agbaji, and Dotson.
A more realistic NBA coach might be Billy Donovan, in my opinion.
Personally, I've been impressed TTU's Chris Beard.
If a KU connection is necessary, Jerrod Haase might be the best bet.
@BShark There might be a number of teams that might gamble on Self and part ways with their current coach if they know Self is interested.
@dylans If Silvio was suspended for just this season, would you feel the same way? Do you think Self would have reacted the same way?
High ankle sprains take longer to heal as we all know.
We will see if Garrett's excellent defense and intangibles are indispensable.
These sort of situations seem to be where Bill Self is at his best.
We will win today. Bank on it.