Lots of prospects list KU, they probably think it makes it look like KU is interested and raises their value when in reality KU is not interested at all.
JayHawkFanToo
13427 posts
You are confusing the KUAD which has always been, still is and will always be parts of the University with Kansas Athletics, Inc. which is an independent non-profit entity.
Doke is agood student, Academic All Conference 2nd team, so I would not be surprised if he decides to come back to KU to not only improve his game but make progress towards a degree as well.
He is staying on the West Coast; unlikely he comes to Kansas. I would say USC or UCLA
It was posted in KU forums including this one that Moore was playing great and was practically âunguardableâ in practice. I donât recall who posted it by maybe that poster can chime in?
The Italy numbers can be misleading. If you check, most of the players had very good and very poor games as a result of playing a new system with very little practice. Moore has been learning the system for one entire season and I am sure that he has gotten much better as he became more familiar as some of the reports appear to indicate. It would not surprise me to see Moore start at the beginning of the season and have Dotson take over once he is more comfortable with the new system. At the start of the season Moore will have a higher floor but no doubt Dotson has the much higher ceiling.
There is no question that there is huge divide between Leonard and the Spurs. If you saw interviews with Pops about you would have seen how frustrated he is with Leonardâs group/uncle taking over his health care from the Spurs and keeping the team in the dark and it is apparent Pops feels Leonard is/was ready to play but basically decided to sit out the season at great cost to the team; the article you cited says exactly that.
The million dollar question is what created that rift...
My comment was never presented as fact but just as that, a comment/opinion on my part and which is what this forum is for and it was based on several stories on various mainline sports publications (including ESPN) on fans being turned off by Pops constant (and negative) comments about politics, which much like those of football players on company time, most fans prefer they are kept out of sports; it is not a stretch to think that players could feel the same way. If you have a better theory I would like to hear it.
I am sure their recent success is opening doors to players previously unavailable. The question is, will it result in higher ranked players that leave earlier and ruin the system that has proven to be successful with older, more experienced players?
Stormy night in Olathe. Luckily (for me) the worst was North and South of my home although there was a possible tornado touchdown about 3 miles just East of me. We had 40-50 mph winds that made the heavy rain go sideways but lasted for only a few minutes. Thankfully it is over.
@justanotherfan said:
So why were schools paying for a player like De Sousa? Well, because whether he ever makes the pros or not, chances that he is a good college player are almost assured. I think we can all agree on that.
I donât believe school were or are paying players, shoe companies are.
The FBI and DOJ MO has always been to start with the little guy, squeeze him and move up a level at a time until they reach the real target. Outside of the schools that deal with Adidas, Gatto is relatively a nobody and I donât believe for a minute he is the real target. Hard to believe that Adidas was doing this in isolation and the other shoecos not doing the same thing. If Adidas is the only one targeted, the investigation would loose credibility; there is definitely a major agenda afoot that we donât quite know yet.
I wondered what happened between them, there appears to be no love lost between them. Maybe he got tired of Pops constant political comments which apparently has annoyed a lot of San Antonio fans as well.
FWIW, looks like the FBI investigation might have been indeed the real reason why Langford did not select KU. This type of story â is all over the internet now and I am sure opposing coaches competing with KU for players will use it against KU. The damage has just begun.
The truth is that the NCAA probably does not want any more dirty laundry aired out in public, particularly if it involves the East Coast MSM darlings. Adidas is the tip of the iceberg and once Nike's and Under Armour's turn comes up it will get a lot worse since Nike is larger than the rest combined...and football has not even come up yet and I read is considerably worse.
I agree that a tough set of rules strictly enforced is the best answer. Frankly, the majority of individuals causing the bulk of the issues are a few dozen of high level prospects which if they skip college and go pro, the majority of the issues would go away. I have always said that quality upperclassmen will usually outperform OADs.
Every year the NBA drafts 60 players of which 30-40 are college players, many upperclassmen. Why should the NCAA change everything for 30-40 transient players and jeopardize the status of 5,000+ players that just want to play competitive college basketball without professional aspiration while getting a free education and are extremely happy and thankful for the current system? I believe that if student athletes are required to attend 3 years of college and high level prospects/OADS can go directly to the NBA, the overall quality of college play would be improved.
I believe we agree except in one thing, you cannot built a team around Lebron, he would build the team himself with the players Lebron wants and will get rid of the players Lebron does not like, as he has done every year.
Lebron is 33 years old and considering he did not attend college, he has a lot of miles in the NBA. He is still currently one of the better if not the best player but he is now moving to the downside of his career and will start slowing down. He is probably one monster 3-5 year contract away from retirement. He could be the player that puts a contender over the top but probably not one you can use to build a long term program; still too much ego to be anything but the top dog.
He played for UK 2015-2016 so his HS dealing were just before that.
I think you are selling Moore short, no pun intended. Based on what I have read about him, he will surprise a lot of people. Markese is currently ranked #84 and will likely move up and maybe break into the top 50 when all is said and done. He might not contribute in his first year but he is a lot like Sherron and if he does anywhere near as well as Sherron did it will be a huge bonus.
Just about everybody in Haiti lives in horrendous conditions. I seem to recall he started a school for him and he was taking classes at a regular school while playing for another or something along these lines.
I believe a lot if not most of these so called guardians are really scouts and agents interested in getting foreign kids with potential and leading them to the big money and taking a cut and not necessarily looking out for the kids and in the process creating a bunch of future headaches for the schools that take them.
It would not surprise me to see the NCAA unveil a new set of very strict rules with severe penalties based on the recommendations of the committee moving forward and declare an overall amnesty for past misdeeds, particularly if there are indications of new and upcoming indictments that would include Nike and Under Armour and their flagship programs like the darlings of the East Coast MSM such as Duke, UK, UNC, Syracuse and others.
Didn't Skal Labissiere had a similar guardian and similar issues? It did not seem to affect his year at UK.
Are you assuming Doke and DeSousa are not coming back? I think there is a 70% chance Doke is back and, if no wrong doing on the part of DeSousa is found only his guardian and the penalty is only a few games, then he is back for sure and all KU need is an outside shooter which Cremo would do nicely
If daddy Langford is to be believed, the FBI probe did hurt KU and it can can truly claim now victim status. :smile: The longer the investigation goes, the more damage it causes and even if KU and other schools are found to be fully innocent, the damage will be considerably and long lasting.
Most posters in this forum are probably too young to remember Ray Donovan, who was Secretary of labor under Regan and was accused by the State of New York.of fraud along with other executives of his construction and other firms and had to resign his cabinet position. The jury deliberated a few hours and found them innocent in the first ballot and then stood and applauded when the accused stood up to celebrate. Afterwards he famously said...''The question is, should this indictment have ever been brought? Which office do I go to to get my reputation back? Who will reimburse my company for the economic jail it has been in for two and a half years?''
Will KU representatives be issuing a similar statement in a few weeks or months? Once the name is out there, it is difficult to remove the associated stigma. Even if KU is found to be completely innocent, the smell related to the implication will linger for along time and will be used by rival programs to impeach KU.
In any case, sounds like daddy Langford is a helicopter dad and will be a new version of Carl Henry which was a thorn in the coaches' side even when he was an alumnus; maybe KU dodged a bullet on this one. The entire announcement makes me think how classy Wiggins announcement was.
it figures, the year KSU will have its best team in a long time so will KU.
Hello Trae Young Part Deux. Good luck at the NIT, the NCAA made a mistake sending OU to the dance because of Young but will not make the same mistake again. Archie Miller is a really good coach and will get Indiana in shape in time but I donât believe one player and one year will do it, he will need more time and talent than what he has now.
Doke is now a one dimensional player with a still developing feel for the game and many holes in his game that I will guess the combine will expose. He really has no offensive game outside a few feet from the basket, is a below average rebounder for his size and his defense ouside the paint needs work.
Having said that, you canât teach size and he is got plenty of that and he seems to be a quick learner and a hard worker. He probably will not get drafted but I am sure several team will want to extend a free agent contract to see if he can improve in the G League.
The question is does he want to come back for an additional year to improve his game and get most of his degree completed or make limited money in the G League with the hope of a larger pay check in the near future?
There is a lot more accountability and scrutiny nowadays and coaches are a lot more careful on what they can and cannot do. If he is going somewhere on personal business I would not be surprised if he flies commercial. With all the investigations going on and the limelight on KU the last thing he or KU need is the Star doing a story on his use of KU planes for personal business.
If Moore is starting it means he is really playing well enough to beat one of the big names...which is a good thing.
I believe Coach Self uses the KU plane which is based in Lawrence for all recruiting. This is the quiet period and cannot meet with the family. Also, if he was going to see Langford he would most likely fly to Louisville which is 15 minutes away and not to Indianapolis which is 2 hours away.
Now, if he is going on a personal trip then he would fly commercial.
...we would be delighted to win 3 games in football...:smile:
Donovan Mitchell was only ranked #43 by ESPN and he really transformed his game between his freshman and sophomore years and now he is taken it to the next level in the NBA and he is doing great in the playoffs. He is the stereotype of a player that benefited greatly from playing a second year in college; he would have been undrafted after his freshman year and went lottery after the extra year.
Beggars can't be choosers. The Porter brothers are gone and and the one year perfect storm of recruits for MU due to hiring daddy and Cuonzo Martin's honeymoon are both over and it is back to taking what they can rather than what they want.
It ain't over until it's over.
Remember DeAndre Ayton was just about 100% KU (with one vote to UK by a UK writer) and yet he ended up at Arizona...although money might have played a part on that.
Redick is in every list of most hated college players of all time and he has admitted that in college he was at times a real a-hole and now he feels bad about it.
No doubt he has had a very good career and he is one the most consistent and reliable long range shooters in the League.
The Askew issue is what we were told at the time led to the NCAA sanctions. In the last couple of years we have learnt that there were a lot more serious issues that we did not know and KU was on the verge of being handed the death penalty. Apparently KU got awy with the proverbial slap on the wrist and this is why I prefer Larry Brown stays away.
For the record, I am not a WSU fan but I am not a basher either and while I donât agree with some things Marshall has said in the past I happen to think he is a very good coach. If by not being a WSU basher you believe I am a fan then go for it.
I posted the statement from the KSU AD who is the person actually handling negotiating the deal. I donât count or discount anybodyâs statements, I simply posted on what I read. I agree that every other year in the last half a dozen years WSU would have been glad to play the two other big schools in the state, but next season is one where KSU would be favored over WSU for a change and I do understand if WSU would not want to start the series next season.
I believe it is safe to say that all of us here hope you are right this time. I would be very happy if he commits to KU but only slightly disappointed if he does not; fortunately this is one time when KU will be fine regardless.
This is what the KSU AD said:
A nonconference basketball game against Wichita State is starting to feel like a realistic possibility. Taylor said K-State coaches and administrators have been in contact with their WSU counterparts, and they are close to agreeing on a game. Maybe even as soon as next season.
âWe have been looking at some options and some dates back and forth, but nothing has been finalized,â Taylor said. âIt could happen next year or it could be moved down the road a little bit. We are definitely talking about a home-and-home and maybe a neutral-site opportunity. All three options are being discussed right now.â
The WSU boards are full of comments on how KSU started the talk and then backed off; fans seem pretty convinced this is the case.
Let's not jump to conclusions. Does any one have a credible source that indicates WSU did not want the series with KSU? From what I have read, KSU wanted to bolster its schedule and floated the idea of playing WSU but then it was KSU that backed off not WSU. FWIW, it is all over the WSU sites, not that they are that credible and obviously the have their own spin but I have not been able to find a valid source that says WSU decide not to play KSU and not the other way around. Maybe it was really Weber and not Marshall that nixed the series.
Actually Vick was invited as an alternate and in case on of the invitees decides not to go (many of the top players pass) or there are injuries he would be attending the combine.
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Are you saying your entire post was sarcasm? It sure does not read that way.
Even better if they only had to pay them room and board, and for their training. That would be quite a business model. I wonder why no one has thought of it yet. You could make a ton of money doing something like that⌠hmmmâŚ
The reason no one uses that model is because it exist in fantasy-land. Your numbers and assumptions are so far off reality that indicate you have never run a business yourself and really have no idea how income is generated or the concept of overhead. You remind me of this professor...
I agree, too much upside with Preston to not get an invite. With a good showing he is probably first round.
Interesting that this exact subject was discussed Tuesday afternoon on 810 AM the offcial KU station in the KC area.
A few of the takes include...
Do you know how much money College basketball spends on direct financial assistant to the 5,000 + Division I players? according to the numbers they researched $224M plus another $16M on walk-ons; this is $240M spend directly on athletes. The average Pell grant is about $4,400 so the money spent on college basketball players would provide Pell grants for 55,000 deserving students. So much for schools not using the money on athletes.
Colleges has always been and still are the place where people go to study and get a degree and college sports have always been and still are AMATEUR sports. People attending college know this before hand and choose to go there knowing full well what the rules are and what is and is not allowed.
Nobody is forced to go to college including elite athletes. College presents elite athletes a chance to improve their potential bycovering all their expenses and providing benefits such as a free education, room and board at often luxurious accommodations, facilities, elite coaching and training personnel, national exposure, providing tutors to help them with school work and even a stipend, all of this in order to maximize future value; none of this is available to the average student that just wants to get a degree.
If an elite athlete believes he is entitled to use his likeness to make money, then by all means he should take all this money that supposedly is available to them from all these alleged sources, be that agents or advertisers, use to live very comfortably for a year while waiting for the NBA to come calling and all the while making money from their likeness or whatever othre ways he can. What is wrong with this? Absolutely nothing, it is a valid option that elite, or any athlete for that matter, can avail himself without bothering with college. Attending college, knowing full well what the rules are and then complaining about them would seem disingenuous at best.
More importantly, why should the handful of elite athletes who think they should be making money while attending college (maybe 1%)change a system that works reasonably well and provides great and welcome benefits to the other 99% of players? Wouldn't the better option be for these individuals to not bother with college at all and just become pros right after HS?
@mayjay , do you think athletes would prefer their image is not displayed at all on the KU website or on ticket stubs so their likeness is not exploited by the privileged people that are so often blamed for everything wrong under the sun? How much do you think Devonte's cute mug would fetch in the open market? How much do you think Devonte's mug would fetch, if instead of KU with its elite coaching facilities and staff and name recognition, he would have attended Appalachia State as originally planned? The answer is likely not much at all which would seem to indicate, as other have mentioned, that the name of the programs name provides the majority if not all the values rather than the individual himself.
In this great country of ours we have things called free market, competition and most of all freedom of choice. If an elite payer believes he is worth that much money in the open market fresh out of High School, then he should take that money, become a professional athlete and skip college altogether. The truth is that without the college affiliation and exposure, the values is just not there, otherwise we would see all the top players skipping college...and yet we don't, right? Even with all its flaws, college still offers the elite athlete the best option to maximize his future income.
I seem to recall a low ranked recruit that was slated to attend Towson and another one headed to Apalachia State and they worker out pretty well. Also, Coach Self has in the past given available scholarships to walkons such as Tehan, Wesley and Young instead of bringing new players.
Players are needed not just for games but also for practice; I know sometimes they use student managers to get bodies when they are short.
Interesting how few visits those 4 high ranked players took. Nowadays prospects will take every allowed visit and then some.
Kcmatt7 said:
Yes, by all means letâs break down your response a little bit.
Are you saying there would be no consequences if elite players quit coming to college? Let's say the top 100 players each year quit coming to school. I would say that probably half of the Shoe company money goes with. That would reduce this sport down to near D2 levels. I agree, I don't think it disappears. But it would lose a lot, a lot of money for the schools.
You are making two very far fetched assumption, one, that there is actually room for 100 players fresh out of HS to play pro basketball and two, that shoe companies would actually pay lots of money to all these kids who are largely unknown to the majority of the buying market. Believe it or not, the percentage of people with buying power do not follow HS or even college sports. The people like us that post in sports forums and follows college sports in detail is very small and no shoe company would really pay to a HS kid with no collevaffiliation large amounts of money for that small niche market.
Nope it sure wouldn't. NFL players who these same companies endorse all wear Nike uniforms. Nike just paid a crap ton to be the official NFL and NBA jersey. So, no, these companies will still sponsor school AND sponsor athletes.
So, now you are equating proven NFL professional stars with HS or college kids?
Exactly! There are a ton of athletes, and not every one of them would get paid. Why? Because the market would set how much they made. That is the beauty of it. It wouldn't effect 97% of athletes most likely.
...and yet you are willing to jeopardize the 97% of the athletes and the well being of the sport for the sake of 3% that cannot wait 9 months to get paid? Actually it would be much less than 3%. Realistically only the best of the best might be able to get some money and that is the top 20-30 players which is less than 1%. If these 20 or 30 top players skip college altogether, the change in college basketball would be nill and the level of play would actually be better since a quality senior (with very few exceptions) will usually outperform a OAD.
I said...
If I create a lineup of 20 individuals, how many of us would actually be able identify the 5 Villanova starters? How many KU fans could at this time correctly identify Grimes and Dotson?
And you answered...
33k followers for Grimes and 31k for Dotson. No chance those are all KU fans. So did KU build their following or did they? Haven't even played a game here yet.
Cute but you did not answer my question. You have to consider that those 33,000 followers include fans from 20 or 30 schools that follow them with the unique objective of finding out where they will play college ball and once they decide on a school, 32,000 will lose interest and the rest will follow them primarily because of the association with KU.
I said...
Letâs be honest, how many members of this forum can correctly identify more than 5 players in the KU football team? Maybe a handful and I am not one of them. Letâs face it, without the college affiliation which they could obviously not use, the desirability and appeal would be extremely limited and mostly localized. The law of unintended consequences would destroy college sports and for what? A couple of dozen athletes that cannot wait a year to get paid?
And you answered...
This is a purely ignorant take and you are using it as support. If you don't know how much money these guys could make, just don't say anything or try to use it as support. Endorsers would be LINING UP to get these kids. College kids have more buying power than you think. Far more buying power than you think. Especially when you consider that the people following the players are the EXACT market for whoever would want to endorse the player. It would be almost impossible to find a better way to spend advertising dollars these days. I broke down above how much some players could fetch. $5K for one post isn't chump change. One post a month and they are earning $60k. Some of them way more. Some way less. But to assume they have to have national level exposure just to make any money doing this means you have NO IDEA what you are talking about on this subject. None at all.
Which again did not answer my question and you are making projection with no basis in reality. Just because a kid has 50,000 followers it does not mean that if he endorses a product all 50,000 followers will buy the product and whatever audience they have is limited to KU fans in the same way that a Duke or Kentucky player would have zero appeal outside their own fan basis and the appeal is primarily due to school affiliation rather than the players themselves. If Davonte, arguably the most popular KU player last season makes a post endorsing, say 7-up, how many people are going to head to the store and buy 7-up because Devonte endorses it? Reality is that many college basketball fans know who DevontĂŠ is but a much smaller number (outside KU fans) could recognize him or care about what he says or sells any more than we KU fans would about something a Duke or Kentucky player has to say or sell. If Grimes and Dotson joined South West Iowa school of Fine Arts instead of KU would you follow them and more importantly would they have the exposure and visibility the will have at KU and would you buy something they endorse? I will guess the answer is no.
Under your scenario, we also start the slippery slope that @HighEliteMajor mentioned and the law of unintended consequences will follow. For example, what if DevontĂŠ (using him as an example, not saying that he would) decided to endorse a male enhancement product, a particular brand of condom, a porn website and also advocates for AIDS prevention by using protection, i.e. the brand he endorses...would this be acceptable while he is directly associated with KU? Who becomes the arbiter of what is acceptable or not acceptable? Remember the expression one manâs ceiling is another manâs floor. If one is and another not, would that be a restriction on the use of his likeness?
You and a handful of fans in this forum follow HS and college players at a very detailed level and are very familiar with them and you are part of a super small minority with that much knowledge (and I admire and respect that) and yet, you are assuming everybody has your level of knowledge or interest in the sport. Hate to break it out to you, most donât.
This take always gets me because what we are proposing wouldn't cost you, the university or the NCAA another dollar. And, according to you, it would only have minimal effect anyways as most athletes aren't worth anything. So, if you let them fetch endorsements, and basically no student athlete could because there is no market for them, how would it effect a single thing?
I also want to say one more thing. You completely talked out of both sides of your mouth in your argument. In this same post, you argued that this could "end college sports as we know it," College Sports are too big to go away, AND that this would effect such a small number that would even be able to fetch endorsements. Which is it? Is this so minimal of an impact that changing the rule wouldn't even hardly be noticed, OR would it completely change college sports?
Silly me, all this time I thought you said that if the elite prospects skip college, Division
I would be like Division 2. I simply posited the the two extremes, the one you though would happen and the one I did. My primary point, which in your haste to discredit my personal opinion, you obviously missed was...why change a system that has been working reasonably well for thousand of student athletes for the sake of of handful of athletes making a pit stop at a school? Why not have them skip college altogether and avoid the aggravation? The sport will not only survive but actually produce a better product.
I would like to see Dickitch interview Cockburn...:smile:
You are making it sound worse than it is. Axtell was able to sell his product at any time but he could market/endorse his product at any time other than the school year when he was playing for KU since he would benefit from his KU exposure.
I saw posts above that say that if we take the elite players from college basketball Division I it would collapse. I will guess that the assumption is that every player in Division I is elite which really is absurd. There are over 5,000 players in Division I and there is not enough jobs for all of them to play professional basketball. The number of elite players is the ones that could make a career playing professionally and that is just a small percentage, about 30-40 that are drafted every year and another 50-70 that would play either in the G League or overseas; this is less than 2% of Division I players and yes, the sport would miss some of the more talented individual players but the overall level would actually be better since more teams would have experienced players rather than OADs, much like Villanova this past season.
The premise that college players are not compensated is ridiculous. I have been doing research with my grandson on what scholarships at major/elite schools cover and even the best academic scholarships do not cover all expenses and even getting a full ride at a school like KU would require the student to come up with a few thousand $ every year. The only conference where a full ride means just that, i.e. covers everything, is the Ivy League which does not provide academic or athletics scholarships and financial aid is based uniquely on financial need.
A few years ago the Wall Street Journal did a story on the actual value of a major sport scholarship at at major conference and the cost was around $50K per year. I would suspect that now, the benefit at a program like KU, UK or Duke with their new luxurious accommodations, elite training facilities and staff, academics support and monthly stipend, the values is close to $70K per year...not bad. If you look at the 20,000 or so students at KU and look at the value of financial aid provide to them, the top 13 recipients would be the 13 basketball player on scholarship; it really does not get any better than this.
Now, if players would be allowed to endorse products like Bilas suggests, wouldnât this create a conflict of interest with the schools? How about if various KU players get contracts with Nike, Adidas, Under Armour, Converse and Reebok, which uniform would they wear? Would a Nike endorser refuse to wear the school endorsed Adidas gear? Would athletic apparel companies tell schools...we will no longer contract with you because we can go directly to the athletes and end college sports as we know it?
How much would student endorsers would really fetch considering the supply of endorsers is now huge, over 20,000 if you include football and other sports, and the demand small? Other than die hard fans, how many people ouside KU fans would recognize, say DevontĂŠ, without his KU uniform and how many people would buy something he endorses considering that most of the so called Twittter followers have little purchase power and their total net worth is the cell phone they use to follow him?
If I create a lineup of 20 individuals, how many of us would actually be able identify the 5 Villanova starters? How many KU fans could at this time correctly identify Grimes and Dotson? Letâs be honest, how many members of this forum can correctly identify more than 5 players in the KU football team? Maybe a handful and I am not one of them. Letâs face it, without the college affiliation which they could obviously not use, the desirability and appeal would be extremely limited and mostly localized. The law of unintended consequences would destroy college sports and for what? A couple of dozen athletes that cannot wait a year to get paid? I say let them go pro and leave college sports alone. When they choose to attend college they agree to follow the rules, if the arrangement is that bad the do not have to attend college, no one is forcing them to do it, they can always join the G League or one of the other pro or semi-pro leagues or play overseas...and they can take Bilas with them.