🏀 KuBuckets Archive

@justanotherfan

We are talking about illegal/unsanctioned/under the table payoffs so HC coaches individual contracts with shoecos are not a part of the equation since they are known to, stated in their contracts and in some cases subject to approval by their programs.

As you said, the hush hush money from shoecos and other parties such as boosters is going to the prospects and their handlers and money from agents to program personnel in a position to influence and steer players to an agent. Again, I just don't see where employees like video coordinators get involved. Not a big deal.

BTW, I do know several professional and college athletes in various sports including basketball, football, tennis, soccer and yes...lacrosse which surprisingly has a professional league, that have gone through the process. One of the biggest names in soccer is a family friend, a highly recruited HS lineman ended up going to MU and was drafted and then decided to get an MBA and leave football behind like other players are starting to do now and he gave me a lot of inside information on the recruiting process and what goes inside major college programs, the brother of a good friend of mine was a highly ranked foreign basketball recruit who ended up at Villanova a few years ago and one of my nephews is currently looking to becoming a professional athlete, so yes, you could say I am somewhat familiar with what goes on. I am sure everyone in this forum probably knows someone that has gone through the process, so nothing new there.

We can argue ad infinitum on this subject and not reach a consensus. Let's just agree to disagree and move on...we can agree it is getting boring and other posters will probably thank us...😊

@HighEliteMajor

A quick search appears to indicate the Federal government and 29 states make a clear distinction between public official and public employee, the rest have various levels of distinction between the two.

@HighEliteMajor

Sorry, I meant to say Public "Officials" not Public "Employees." KU coaches might be public employees but not necessarily public officials. In any case, under your theory, coaches at private schools would no be subject to the law since they are not Public Officials or Employees, right? This would no make any sense, right?...not that any of it makes sense at this time.

Prosecutors bring charges for shaky cases all the time; I understand it gives them additional resources that migh not be available otherwise.

@justanotherfan

I just don't see it. Shoecos are not paying program staffs, they are paying prospects. Their interest is primarily in the top 30 or so players and nothing below that since the chance of the becoming superstars is slim and they get more benefit paying the prospects directly and schools would be happy to have these players; I imagine some even pay for the privilege.

Assistant coaches are paid by agents (not shoecos) to steer players already in the program to them. I just don't see where the money for video coordinators would come from or why anyone would want or need to do it.

@HighEliteMajor

Remember that the Feds got Al Capone for tax evasion and not for the numerous other crimes he committed but could not prove. Some of the convictions in this particular scenario might well come down to tax evasion, as funny and ironic as it seems.

@justanotherfan

You are comparing apples and oranges. Prospects do not go and see coaches, other than the official and unofficial visit and long afte the school has been in contact and shown interest; coaches go to see prospects and the gate keepers are not the secretaries or the video coordinators but the HS/AAU coaches and the prospects families/posses.

Coaches have a prioritized list of prospects and it really does not make a difference which video they see first, they will request and watch the videos of the prospects they are following. Outside sources send videos, not to the video coordinators but to the coaching staff and I could see where an assistant could have influence but not a video coordinator.

KU uses very expensive and sophisticated external recruiting evaluating services that provide detailed reports, more so than the internal staff.

Again, apples and oranges, in my opinion of course.

@justanotherfan

Duncanville HS, home of KU great Greg Ostertag...:smile:

@justanotherfan

I would suspect the people down in the food chain are not involved. Any player that would command any type of expenditure is one the staff is already following anyway and shoecos do not need to bribe someone to present said player to the coaching staff. As I underrated, the staff meets at the beginning of the week and the activities for the week outlined and the lower level personnel works on the details but "policy" is dictated by the coaching staff alone with the HC having the final word.

Likewise, HC are likely not at the receiving end of compensation and their involvement is more like the one Pitino is alleged to be involved. i.e. giving tacit direction or permission to "approach" a prospect and "steer" him to the program.

I would suspect the bulk of money changing hands involves lower paid assistant coaches, particularly those with prior ties via AAU. KU assistants appear to be well compensated and with potential head coaching futures so their involvement is less likely.

What a senseless tragedy. Prayers for the City of Las Vegas and the victims and families.

I am not really a big baseball fan but watched the entire game just to see the player take the field at the end of the game one last time.

This was a group of very special players that made baseball fashionable in KC once more. I hope the next iteration brings more of the same; seem like there are some really good prospects already.

@HighEliteMajor

I agree with you in principle with what you are saying but not knowing everything that transpired is hard to see it one way or another. There well could be another level of corruption they have not disclosed that they are saving to use as leverage.

I believe the links you provided refer to public employees and I am not sure many or any of the participants qualify as such.

@jayballer54

You have been working overtime on recruiting. Don't give up on Dotson...after all, you were right about McCormack, right? I am hoping you are right about Dotson as well. :smiley:

@kjayhawks

Looks like you will find that many of us share your thoughts on rap music. I have a number of friends that are into music and in the music business and just about all of them consider rap a form of expression but not necessarily music; frankly, I don't know what to call it.

What I find troubling is hearing kids repeating rap lyrics blindly and not really paying attention to what they say. I have asked many kids in the past if they really have given a thought to the lyrics and once they do they are shocked by what they have been parroting. In many ways a form of subliminal message that desensitizes kids. Definitely well beyond what my generation would consider acceptable. I am not saying that all rap is extreme. I believe Will Smith was a rapper , once upon a time, that was relatively tame by rap mainstream standards and I am sure there are other but seems like the great majority are not.

Just my personal opinion and do not expect others to share my opinion.

@jaybate-1.0

I was talking about Mephistopheles (from whom the shorter Mephisto derives) the demon to whom Faust sells his soul, much like how prospects sell their souls to the squid for some fleeting success and fame. I thought you were relating Mephisto to "Memphisto" or the demon from Memphis as the ultimate literary pun. Maybe I just overthought it... :smile:

@BShark

Hard not to have a great visit when Late Night is involved and now they get to see the place where they could live...and the Mid West and more specifically Kansas are normally very friendly places to visit.

@BShark

We have seen prospects before that wore other brands and no KU associated gear. I am not sure it means anything but it was nice to see.

@BShark

Both are sporting all Adidas/KU great...

The contract that #%€^*# Zenger signed with Time Warner gives it exclusive rights to several men's basketball and football games. Women's basketball and volleyball games have also been blacked out; in other words, every sport worth watching has been affected. Can't think of any other AD that has done more to alienate fans than Zenger...and the worst part is the fans most affected are in Kansas and the KC Metro area which had the largest concentration of KU alumni in the country.

@jayballer54

They actually played TCU...

Very tragic.

@jaybate-1.0

LOL. Now, Cal as the original "Memphisto" that would be a cerebral pun for German literature fans.

@Texas-Hawk-10

You posit a valid theory but much like mine is still a theory since we really don't know what transpired during the recruiting process...at least not yet. Of ourse, if he ends up playing overseas the answer will be obvious.

I don't recall who was considered the front runner before KU became the favorite but, is it possible that it happened because his ascent to the top of the charts made him more appealing to elite programs? I honestly don't recall if he was always at or near the top or if happened due to excellent off-season/AAU play like many other largely unknown players, whom a good AAU run catapulted them in the rankings.

Back to my original premise, if Zion and/or family did not do anything wrong, i.e. received money or other unapproved benefits that would affect his eligibility, wouldn't KU be the logical destination since, considering all the sure scrutiny to follow, it would send a clear message that the allegations were false? Just thinking aloud.

@Texas-Hawk-10

I have an alternate theory. If Zion is squeaky clean, then KU might be the logical destination because there would not be anything seedy to uncover and would be vindicated. Now, if money was discussed or worse yet, delivered, then KU would want nothing to do with it.

@HighEliteMajor

You make some interesting and valid points. Most of us that have followed Coach Self's career would be shocked if he did not go by the book; he is the ultimate boy scout. His assistants seem to be quality people as well and the only one that would give me pause is Jerrance "snacks" Howard, mostly because of his marijuana possession conviction that he kept hidden from Coach Self for almost 6 months and his recruiting of Alexander that ultimately raised a number of red flags. If he kept this hidden, it is not much of a stretch to think that he could have hidden other things as well.

I keep thinking that there seems to be no law that I can think that would prevent a shoeco from giving a student athlete or his family money and as long as taxes are paid there is no criminal law broken, @mayjay might want to correct me if I am wrong. Now, this would definitely make him ineligible to play NCAA sports and, if he fails to disclose this information and plays for a program, there would be a number of NCAA"rules" broken but not really a law. Of course, if the programs is seriously damaged as a result, the school might seek monetary redress but this would be a civil and not a criminal case.

As far as the assistant coaches being paid by shoecos, as long as it does not violate his contract and he pays taxes, the issue would be mostly civil and not necessarily criminal but this is just speculation on my part. All prosecutors have an agenda, some are good and some not so much. We will soon see where this probe leads.

I would think that because of the level of prospects involved and the money in question, the issue is limited to major programs in the top conferences. The smaller programs do not get the type of prospect that would command money or much money from the shoecos in the first place.

Kcmatt7 said:

I just wanna know who made Drake a U.K. Fan. That really is a game changer.

How about P Diddy? He is as big as they come and he has literally kicked Drake's butt before and might do it just to show him up one more time...😵

@mayjay

Jerry Jones knelt for a few second BEFORE the anthem anthem and then he and the rest of the team stood up for the anthem...a little detail you left out...

Kids like this? What is wrong with them?...maybe it's just me.

BShark said:

For anyone wondering about Lil Yachty. Seems like a great move for the target audience (the recruits) based on twitter posts.

Who is Lil Yatchy? I guess it reveals my age and taste in music (???).

ParisHawk said:

It's unrealistic because of what has happened in reality. Athletes sure they are worth millions, often coming from families not well off, are tempted by unscrupulous folks who want their cut of the future bonanza.

Why is it unrealistic? It is not as if the student athlete will be out money since the school pays all of his expenses (and even some spending money) and provides a huge amount of resources to improve his skills. According to the Department of Education ↗, expenses at KU are $147K per basketball player and only $23K per football player.

!0_1506722920217_upload-7fde7f91-f97c-4204-98a9-6ba5399d241a ↗

while the revenues generated by football are $30M versus $18M for basketball.

!0_1506723008024_upload-2a896cb8-e985-471c-b424-213ada486b0b ↗

The school spends a huge amount of money on each basketball player so it is not like the student athlete is doing the school a great favor, he is benefiting greatly himself not only because of all the benefit but also because of the exposure that greatly enhances his future earning power.

Now, if a family is counting on a 17 or 18 year old to support it, then that is a bigger societal problem and more unrealistic.

@BeddieKU23

If it gets any bigger, the NCAA might allow individual to transfer from schools caught in the net; heck, it might allow all recruits with signed LOI to reconsider their destinations. We might end up with a reboot of the entire 2018 class recruiting.

@Kcmatt7

Exactly. My TV sports tier has several channels that show D/G League games and I have watched many games when KU players are involved and you see the stands and most games have at best a few hundred people in attendance; it really looks more like a practice game at a major program. The audience and interest are just not there.

From what I have read to date, most payoffs to college personnel were in the low to mid 5 figures so it is highly doubtful that any major program coach is involved since their income is considerably larger. If one is involved it will be more likely because he looked the other way but not because he took money; that would be more likely a lower level assistant for whom 5 figures is a lot of dough.

@jaybate-1.0

Now, that is funny but then...don't they say that Zionists control the world?

@Kcmatt7

Yes, but...in HS Bragg played PF and Center and we only assumed he could play the 3. Garret actually played PG in HS and by all accounts he was the the general on the floor and he was selected POY as a PG. I guess we will find out soon enough.

Marcus Garret can play PG. As a PG he led his team to the State semifinal and was the Gatorade POY in Texas, all of this as a PG. Read some of the comments here ↗ and here ↗ about him playing not only PG but all 3 guard positions. I believe he would be a very capable PG for KU.

jayballer54 said:

Whz a Bong? lol -- is it a game? - -like Ping Pong? - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

That would be beer pong...:smiley:

@Kcmatt7

Agreed; we might actually see better basketball. I believe a team of 5 4-star seniors would beat a team of 5 OADs every time.

@ParisHawk

Remember that the one year wait is not a NCAA/college but a NBA rule and they can always play overseas as many do.

Just about every other career requires some or a lot of preparation before you can make a living, even McDonald's requires you to start at the bottom and gradually move your way up the ladder. Why is it so unrealistic to expect an athlete to take a few months preparing before joining the League and making millions?

I personally prefer the baseball rule, you can go to the Majors out of high school but if you choose to go to college you have to wait 3 years. As good or better rule than any I can come up with.

@Texas-Hawk-10

I respectfully disagree. It would be even dumber for a newspaper to oppose a project that would double the size of the Medical School and would build a much better arena that would not only improve the basketball program image but would attract more road shows and generate a large chunks of revenue, not only for the city but also for the surrounding businesses? Look at what the Sprint Center did for downtown KC compared to the old Kemper Arena and look at all the new businesses around the enlarged KU Medical Center.

As I understand, the owners of the property in question where expecting a huge and completely unrealistic payoff of more than twice the appraised value; they were counting on Texas basketball having a resurgence that has not happened. Apparently one of the promises made to Smart was that a new arena was in the works...who knows what really happened.

I am glad KU does not have to worry about a basketball arena.

@mayjay

At this point there seems to be at least some evidence that Pitino knew what was going on and obviously the school knows something and this is why he was "fired" so quickly. There is no evidence other than some alleged unknown source that Adidas was steering Zion to KU and zero evidence that Coach Self or KU knew about it.

In any case, haven't posters here been complaining that Adidas does not steer enough prospects to KU and it should switch to Nike? Isn't Adidas job to steer prospects to programs they sponsor? A real conundrum.

@HighEliteMajor

I agree. Athletes do not have to attend college and they are free to play elsewhere. The Wall Streer Journal estimated that athletes receive benefits north of $200K during a normal college stay.

Most every college student...make that all college students I know would love to be able to attend school with all expenses paid while living in the best accommodations on campus, perhaps even in town, having dietitians preparing his meals, the best coaches and trainers developing his skills an tutors helping him with school work and taking overseas junkets and leaving school with a degree, maybe even a graduate one and zero debt. A sweet deal if you ask me.

...and yes, Bilas is a pompous ass that believes he knows more than anyone else...in other words, a typical dukie. 😁

Remember that 810 AM is now the KU station on KC...

@jayballer54

Langford is a likely OAD while Grimes is not. KU might get more from Langford in his one year but Grimes might be the overall better choice since will stay for 3-4 years.

@Texas-Hawk-10

I am very familiar with eminent domain and it use is not limited for use by government organizations; developers often have cities use eminent domain (or condemnation) to purchase land they want to develop and cities do it because it brings more income.

The entire Legends development in Kansas City, Kansas that includes the race track, soccer and baseball stadiums and a number of stores and restaurants was done this way. One of my technicians had a home there and he had no choice although he received above appraised value money, was allowed to live there for free for 6 months until constructions was ready to start and he was able to take anything he wanted from the house. He was told that the more he took from the house, the less they have to haul away. He could have lifted the house on a trailer and move it elsewhere; I believe some people actually did this.

The problem at UT is that there was not enough interest in the basketball program and some thought that if Smart would make it dominant, getting the entire replacement money would be more palatable to football crazy Texans. Unfortunately Smart has not delivered and interest is now gone and hence the upgrade instead of replacement...it's Smart's fault.. This is my story and I am sticking to it...:smile:

REHawk said:

@JayHawkFanToo Ah yes. I shouldn't have employed the word "lurking." How about "floating?"

No. you should have posted your comments in the Politics section that @approxinfinity has graciously created for just that purpose.

@REHawk

This is the basketball and not the political section.

Any news on Zion Williamson?

@Texas-Hawk-10

This would not be a big deal. The city can use eminent domain to force the sale since it would be for public use and would benefit the community. Apparently the school did not feel the program would generate enough income to justify the expenditure.

@Texas-Hawk-10

If Smart would have had more success to date with more in the near future, a location would have been found. No doubt that the lackluster performance to date hurt the chances of a new arena and the emphasis kicked back to football...at least this is what my Texan friends tell me.

@drgnslayr

Much like Ellis, and because of need, Mitch has been playing out of position. He has the build to be SF but has been playing PF. In HS this is not an issue but in Division I it is. He does have knack for rebounds so I will guess he will play a 3/4 combination.