@BeddieKU23 What would be the point of calling for others to play instead of KJ if people didn't believe that doing so would make us better?
Jhawk69
618 posts
Methinks that maybe this game proves that Bill Self was right about KJ and people on the internet were wrong
@KirkIsMyHinrich We will get a highly touted guard in the portal. The question is whether he ends up being a Mayo or a Timberlake.
I wasn't really talking about KJ. The point is that I believe Bill Self's choices in the past are not evidence of a stubborn will to play less talented but more experienced players to the detriment of the team. He assesses who gives us the best chance to win and plays that player. He doesn't bat 100 but he is right more than wrong and is right more than any of us on this board.
Regarding KJ, I agree that the defense sags off of him and that that causes offensive problems. But he does some good things to make up for it. Overall, he is a fine but not great player. He deserves a role on this team but probably should not play 30+ mpg at the 4.
@MoonwalkMafia In KJs absense we should play Rylan and Keese at the 4. Maybe give Storr another chance too, see if we can get him going.
When KJ comes back he should get some playing time at both the 4 and 5, but we should continue to play small ball a lot.
I think something everyone needs to understand is that
1) If player A has more upside and talent than player B, it does not guarantee that player A is automatically a better basketball player in any given moment of time than player B.
2) If player A (who is more talented than player B but not as good a basketball player at the current moment) is given a lot of minutes he is not guaranteed to suddenly become a better player than player B in a short period of time.
A couple examples of this are Frank Mason who played slightly fewer minutes than Naadir Tharpe as a freshman and Perry Ellis, who backed up Kevin Young as a freshman. They stuck around for a long time and eventually developed into players that were miles better than Tharpe and KY. But it took time, there is no evidence to believe this process could have been expedited by playing them a few more minutes per game as freshmen.
Per game Traylor averaged 21 minutes and Cliff averaved 18. Cliff averaged 2 more ppg and 1 more rpg. He was also a significantly worse defender. At that time, Traylor was the better option and it was very obvious. Cliff had more long term potential but he was not going to turn into a great player overnight. He was going to have to stick around for at least another year to be a starting caliber player, so playing him more would not have helped.
Besides, Bill DID give Cliff the starting job anf more minutes to Cliff in hopes that he would develop, only for him to get suspended.
@kuballin10 It is technically possible that Cliff, or Cheick or Josh Selby could have helped us but it is by no means "obvious". There is no evidence that they would have and it is pure speculation to say that they would have. In fact, I think they would have made our seasons worse had they played more (and there is evidence to support this).
As for our loss in the round of 32 to Stanford, I actually agree Frank probably should have played more that season. (though this is debatable, freshman Frank was not the same beast as senior Frank) But in that game he actually played more minutes than Frankamp and it is pretty clear we lost because Embiid was injured and Wiggins disappeared. I don't think minutes distribution has much to do with it.
@MoonwalkMafia Cliff averaged 2 more points and 1 more rebound than Jamari with approximately the same amount of minutes. Cliff was also a HUGE liability on defense. Jamari wasn't a great rim protector but was still miles better than Cliff.
As for Cheick vs Landen, Landen scored more ppg although Cheick had more points per minute. That is where Cheick's advantages stop. Landen was clearly a better rebounder, a better post defender, had a better shooting percentage, fouled less, and turned the ball over less.
I am not saying Landen was great. I would have loved for Cheick to play great and take the starting spot, making Landen a solid backup. But Cheick was not good enough. He had tons of potential, but was a project. He should have stuck around a few years honestly.
If I recall correctly, for the first half of the 2016 season, we were playing musical chairs at the 5-spot. Sometimes it was Cheick, sometimes Bragg, sometimes Lucas, sometimes Mickelson. We struggled at times because of it. Then, when we settled on Landen, we started playing much better. He wasn't great, but he was good enough, unlike the other options.
That's my take anyways. Interested in hearing all of your thoughts.
@kuballin10 We went something like 35-3 with Brady and Tyrel starting as seniors. I don't think there is any reason to doubt Bill's decision to start them. If we really want to look at situations where Self played the wrong guys, I think not playing Naadir Tharpe enough in 2013 (I know that sounds weird, but Tharpe was the only true PG that year and we needed that) and not playing Andrew White III enough when he was here were mistakes.
@MoonwalkMafia Landen Lucas was a better player than Cheick Diallo. Jamari was better than Cliff.
Bill gave both Cheick and Cliff ample chances. At one point he started Cliff over Jamari for a few games just in hopes it would jumpstart Cliff and help him reach his potential. It didn't. Sometimes players just don't perform and need to take a back seat to others with less talent but who are just better players.
None of this is to say Bill is perfect or that he has never made a wrong decision in whom to play. But neither Cliff nor Cheick was benched for a lesser player just because of "trust" or anything like that.
Since winning the title in 2022 we have had:
2023: a season where we won the Big 12 and earned a one seed but got bounced early
2024: our worst season under Bill Self but we lost our best player due to injury and were still ranked all season and never in danger of missing the tournament
2025: mostly TBD but right now looks like a borderline top-10 team that is a long shot to win the title
That is nowhere near bad enough to panic. If you don't believe me look at the history of every other program in college basketball. If we have a couple more below-average seasons or ever miss the tournament then there might be cause for concern.
@BShark I don't want to say "good" in response to that because I don't wish injury upon anybody. But the silver lining to Clemmence not being healthy is that we are basically forced to play 4 around 1.
I don't know if I can agree that Lance is running a borderline shit show. Even with last season not going how we expected he is still way ahead of schedule.
But yes, KU fans are comically entitled when it comes to basketball.
Is Clemmence healthy enough to play?
@rockchalkjayhawk It is a little tiresome. A little unfair too, that players worse than them take none of the blame. But that's the way the cookie crumbles.
This was one we were always going to lose. Its okay. Let's take care of K-State now
@approxinfinity I don't think so. Not yet anyways. This team lacks effort but I think that will change once Hunter is gone
I told you guys. Leave ISU guards a little space on the perimeter and its an automatic 3.
This game was lost on 50/50 balls. Hopefully a lesson for the squad. On to the next one.
@Zabudda Hunter will attempt about 20 shots. He will make 7-8 of them. He will also be in position for about 20 rebounds, he will come down with about 12 of them and be outhustled by smaller ISU forwards for the other 8. He will finish with something like 18 points and 12 rebounds but will be largely ineffective. To make up for that, Mayo and Harris will have to shine and Rylan will need to knock down some threes.
@BShark That is all true, but I think they will rain threes against us.
Still, we have to play a near perfect game to win this one. All their guards will be automatic from 3 if we leave them evem a little open.
It's almost as if no longer being a joke of a program is appealing to recruits 🤔
Is there anyone who disagrees that offense is slightly more important than defense but that both are extremely important?
Shhhh. 2018 never happened 🤫
A debate about whether having an elite defense is a good thing.... This should be interesting 🤔
Zeke, Shak, and DaJuan were all rock-solid on defense. Shout-out to Hunter for playing the best defensive game of his career as well.
KJ was awesome today. That stretch where he forced the Cincinnati turnover then got the stickback and drew the foul was the most important moment in the game
Tech had it won in regulation but couldn't knock down their free throws.
We are growing more and more frustrated and Cincy is growing more and more confident
One thing that scares me about the Bearcats:
Their biggest weakness is free-throw shooting. BUT, we all know they will be excellent at the line today.
One game at a time. For now, the Cincinnati game is all that exists.
I read something saying it is one year because he spent a couple of years at a college in Australia
We now have a punter. Based on stats alone he looks like an upgrade over Greaves.
@approxinfinity I'm pretty sure. I know he is at his sixth stop in the last 6 years. In high school he played for Bishop Gorman, then AZ Compass, then IMG Academy. In college he spent a year at St John's, a year at Wisconsin, then a year at Kansas.
If AJ were prone to homesickness he wouldn't be on his 7th school in 7 years.
I think we have our rotation figured out. DaJuan, Diggy, Shak, Mayo, Rylan, KJ, Flory, and Hunter. We will roll with those 8 guys most of the season. Maybe even with 7 (Diggy not making the cut) when things get really intense.
AJ didn't make the cut.
I am happy that we played well twice in a row.
@kuballin10 Shak started
The fact that we are catching flak for resting our starters in a meaningless (for us) week 17 game proves two things
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We live rent free in other fanbases heads to an unprecedented degree
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NFL fans are VERY stupid.
Resting your starters on the last week when you have nothing to play for is standard practice and has NEVER been controversial. I don't even think the nationally hated Patriots were ever criticized for it in the 2010s. I guess we are now the greatest villains in football history BWAHAHA
DaJuan only averages 30 mpg this year. Last year Bill did play DaJuan 38 mpg, largely because he did not trust Elmarko. I do not think we would have been any better had DaJuan played 8 fewer minutes and Elmarko 8 minutes more last year but I could be wrong.
@kuballin10 Bill Self never wanted to play DaJuan 36-38 minutes per game. He has said multiple times that he needs to play 28-30 so he can be more effective and less worn down.
@kuballin10 I agree he deserves to keep playing big minutes. 25 mpg might be ideal.
What I like about this team is we can play any combination of our 3 bigs. We can play KJ with Hunter, Flory with Hunter, or KJ with Flory. We will probably give all three of them substantial minutes and play the hot hand moving forward.
"@Jhawk69 responded with sarcasm and zero comments about the actual defensive methods"
To clarify, my comment about taking wins with a grain of salt and panicing over losses was not a response to you or directed towards anyone in particular. It was meant to be a lighthearted joke about the tendency of sports fans to panic too easily.
Have a good day and let's hope for a win vd ASU tonight.
Flory's minutes are on the rise. Over the past 5 games he has logged 7, 8, 14, 17, and 21. I don't think we can complain that he isn't playing enough.
@kuballin10 2019 Doke injured, 2023 Self hospitalized, 2024 McCullar injured. The seasons where we are at full strength we tend to do well.
@kuballin10 But is there a concrete, tangible source that I could access to confirm this?
@kuballin10 I had no idea Self promised KJ the 4 spot over Grant Nelson. Out of curiosity, do you have a source?