@wissox There is that new fangled contraption called a DVR.
HighEliteMajor
5416 posts
@Crimsonorblue22 We are so offensively challenged, we need whatever gives us points, I think. Heck, play zone. Pressure that 3 pt line. Reality is there are no good answers right now. We desperately need Agbaji to get going — that would make things a lot better.
Hmmm...chance to play on KC as a four seed. Maybe the NCAA favors KU?
dylans said:
Ironically Garrett made the team better against WVU.
See, Garrett is usually a guy that DOES make a team better. I really think that the caveat is that with a team that is offensively challenged, situationally, he can be a detriment. We saw that offensively yesterday. My sole solution there was that we needed to focus some effort inside, scoring wise. They does help Dedric. I rarely disagree with Self on his situational adjustments— but I really think we needed to be patient and ride McCormack yesterday.
Instead, we let ISU dictate our scheme, and KU in a 4/1 scheme (with Agbaji in a swoon necessitating Garrett on the court) is simply not as good as ISU.
I’m not saying we win. In fact, the point made before about our scoring differential with Dotson off the court may a more important item.
I just see Dave trending up.
That’s the only real “X” factor we have to improve, and to make a real run, other than Agbaji regaining some early magic.
@Fightsongwriter No one on this team is capable of guarding Zion effectively. So I concede that point. We’d have to try to try to flash double him. Make him pass. Step in his lane. Push him from the basket. Team concept. Hope he gets 18 not 30. Great players also have off nights. Do I sound as stupid as I think I sound? Ok -- it's the NCAA tourney. Big upsets happen. That might be better.
@approxinfinity I really disagree — but I could be wrong. When players speak of goals for the year, winning the Big 12 tourney is one of them. They only get to play for three troohies each season. Heck, what else does this team have? I think this should have been a big deal. This team could win something. I cannot imagine Self downplaying this to the team. Teams that win the conference regular season and have a chance for a national title? I get that. But for this team? Win something. Make your mark. But again, I could be wrong.
I do think Self made a major mistake not playing McCormack yesterday. I just don’t get it. I know every move can have an explanation and I’m sure Self could offer one. But he would be wrong.
Self said this just before the tournament - “ I think we have been better since we’ve been playing two bigs and certainly, with David,” KU coach Bill Self said of inserting 6-foot-10 freshman David McCormack into the starting lineup.
Self actually did explain yesterday. What you’ll see is another instance where we let the opponent dictate our personnel. I wonder, would Self have sat Doke? His explanation — would have put Doke on the bench.
http://m.kusports.com/news/2019/mar/16/benton-smith-jayhawks-not-dwelling-negatives-after/ ↗
Self continues to play Garrett big minutes. Garrett is such a liability on an offensively challenged team. I said that a long time ago. Yesterday was a day where that fact was well apparent. Garrett didn’t lose us the game of course. He had 15 rebounds.
But we need options that score the basketball. Of course, maybe we don’t have a lot (but I won’t let that get in the way of a good rant).
Self said this before the tournament, yet continues to play the worst shooter in recent KU history -“I do think that we’re capable of playing at that high level,” Self said. “But the team that will advance will be the one like our team last year. We made shots. That’s what needs to happen. We need to have some guys step up and make some shots. We’ve shown we’re capable of doing that. We’ve had multiple games where we’ve had double-figure threes.”
Of made shots will win it, Garrett ain’t the guy. I would have rather seen McCormack for 30+ minutes.
@kjayhawks That da** Nova game. I referenced it last week too. Scars.
@Fightsongwriter Come on, man ... Villanova beat G’town in ‘85. Who was going to guard Ewing? And Zion is no Ewing. Duke is not invincible. We might beat Duke one out of ten times. But we’d only play them once. You’ve heard of upsets? Right? Duke lost a 2/15 deal once. We lost to freaking Northern Iowa
Hope! Faith! Even if it seems impossible.
@jayhawkcsg Both.
@BShark Garrett needs a complete makeover. It is arguably gross negligence for him to be allowed to continue to use that horrible form and release. I can’t even fathom it. Now, I’m not advocating the George McGinnis one hand jumper, but one where he get the ball well above his head and uses his wrist — it’s the opposite of what he’s doing and that’s the best place to start.
We were not able to utilize our three most talented players. As excuses go, pretty valid.
We are so offensively challenged in certain matchups — Garrett and Mitch excel in certain matchups but not others. Agbaji going in the tank has been a killer.
@BShark So you’re saying Charlie Moore might not be that good?
HighEliteMajor said:
@wissox I like that .. what’s the record for winning either the regular season league title or the conference tournament in the same year? This would be 15 if we did. Okie St won it the year before our reg. season streak started.
HEM is an Idiot
@wissox I like that .. what’s the record for winning either the regular season league title or the conference tournament in the same year? This would be 15 if we did. Okie St won it the year before our reg. season streak started.
@tundrahok Exactly - the activity we were all wanting. Man, he was feeling it at the end of the first half. After hitting a couple threes he was begging for the ball, but we went inside. That was right before he hit the long three to end the half. I sure hope we have him next season.
Hmmm .. in a year where we’re down. Maybe the chance to upset Duke could be the greatest opportunity of the season? Wouldn’t that be sweet?
@Bwag Those 8 rebounds by Grimes are the most important stat of the night. Great to see.
Some guy named Brandon Lang who does gambling shows. Says he has a source.
🐦 View Tweet?s=12
@Texas-Hawk-10 That's a fair point ... I don't know KT's contract status, whether it's multi-year. But if he's got a decent sum riding on a "for cause" firing, birds of sung loudly to get paid. Losing contractual money due is why I think it's something to consider, not the NCAA applying pressure. But now that you say that, the NCAA can cut deals like everyone else -- tell us what you know and we'll be easy on you (the show cause stuff that gets folks banned). Spit ballin' on possibilities. But loyal guys stay loyal. And the counter point is that loyal guys have stayed loyal 'till death before. KT may be that guy.
Actually, I think TT losing is a good for them. Maybe an attention getter. I think they're a legit FF team.
@Kcmatt7 @BeddieKU23 Maybe the coaches can work with him on his shot over the summer? Uh, well ... maybe skip that, so says Udoka and Garrett.
@BeddieKU23 - Well, you're right. It was a poor way to grab some news. Got our attention.
@Texas-Hawk-10 I wouldn't be surprised by anything with this stuff. If we let KT go, will he squeal? A careful bit of handling there seems prudent. Heck, even if KT was rogue and Self didn't know, when folks are losing jobs and money and their profession, it wouldn't be past someone to fib a bit. This would stack onto the issues that concern me regarding why Self might bolt. That way, his staff leaving would be a natural consequence, vs. isolating someone in an obvious manner.
Any dishonesty and misrepresentations aside, I wonder, is it Beatty's job to make sure the guy is "certified," or the University that employs the assistant coach?
@BeddieKU23 I think all Meyer is doing is reiterating what he's heard. I'm not really defending the guy, but that's how I took it. I think the proof on this will be in the pudding. If we sign some top guys, or even one this spring, it will be some ammo against that narrative. I wish I were optimistic on this. I'm not.
@BeddieKU23 There was a stretch there where I was wondering if our set offense was to have Grimes come down and clank a shot. And on cue, the moment Charlie Moore touched the ball he immediately drove and threw up a miss.
I posted the direct link to the 24/7 story earlier, that quoted Jerry Meyer. Remember, he’s just saying what is being said on the recruiting trail by others. What is being said to hurt KU. It gives an indication of how this entire deal is hurting our recruiting. Myth and the unknown can be enough to cause a recruit to simply make a different choice. Why risk it if you are a top guy? It’s just how it is.
And it’s part of the reason why I continue to be concerned about the future of our head coach. I know I’ve been on that for quite a while. But this garbage is why coaches leave. And if there is fire where there is smoke, it’s why they get asked to leave.
I still shake my head at an AD’s contract that benefits the AD if we go on probation. Like paying a coach more to lose.
Remember the Oceans 13 movie .. where they made life miserable for the Diamond club guy? Maybe we could do the same for the NCAA guy.
nuleafjhawk said:
As long as we don't fall to a #6 seed. There is no way possible in the universe that a team could win the National Championship going into the tournament as a #6 seed.
Man, I agree. Simply impossible. How could such a thing every occur.
@dylans Good point. I kind of think it's the classic freshman wall, if there is such a thing. And teams now game planning a bit. But I'd bet strongly on him in the future. Love the kid and his game and his attitude on the court. We'll see.
I've notice Agbaji's feet are pretty wide of late when he shoots the three - meaning wider than his shoulders by a good bit. What I can't remember is if his feet were like that when he was shooting it well. Anyone remember?
@BeddieKU23 And the trend-line is up. It is amazing what some game experience can do for a player.
Calling Diallo. Mr. Diallo, could you kindly assist in our EE game vs. Nova? We're having a heck of a time inside vs. their athletes. They're focusing on Perry. Please help.
@Texas-Hawk-10 No, not advisable. Further, if it was that simple, that's how it would have been done. That's a big no-no. Donations are screened and that is at the top of the "watch for" list. What happened in some of these cases were that they masked bribe money as donations, which is a specific part indictment info. --
"(3) to use the facade of a charitable organization to conceal the nature and source of the bribe payments."
The tried to run it through a charitable organization because to do it out in the open would not have worked.
@BeddieKU23 Right .. we're missing 55 points from that one. Udoka scored 23, Vick 32. That was Vick's psycho game. I think we're better that Vermont, of course, but one of those teams that could bite us I think.
No one would be surprised if we laid an egg against Texas, and got bumped by a Vermont, or a similar team, in the first round. And no one would be surprised if we won the conference tourney and got to the Sweet 16. All in the reasonable range of possibility for this team. Let's play as many games as we can.
@Texas-Hawk-10 I agree .. we're not sending anyone to jail. Of course, I assume you realize (or maybe not) that you can convict a person of a crime based solely on circumstantial evidence. But you're confusing topics. You were first, above, referring to Self's comments being related to Vick (which I was responding to), and now you're referring to "reasonable doubt that Vick violated his agreement with Self." Different items. Pick one.
Try this, two civil court standards of proof -- 1) the preponderance of evidence, and 2) clear and convincing evidence. The latter more stringent, perhaps between #1 and beyond a reasonable doubt. Most every civil case utilizes "the preponderance of evidence." Akin to "more likely than not."
Of course, in a civil proceeding, a lawyer can call Self and/or Vick to the stand, under oath. Vick's mom, too.
So you truly don't think Tharpe was forced out? Hmmmm.
@BeddieKU23 @Woodrow I kind of interpreted that as Jerry Meyer repeating what was said on the recruiting trail, the worries of recruits --- meaning that factual accuracy might not be the highest priority. Actually, what is happening now to Miller and Wade is exactly what I was concerned about for Self. It would sure be a big relief if this has passed by coach Self without him getting a subpoena.
@nuleafjhawk Ok, you too.
@Texas-Hawk-10 Ok .. dangerous territory is what you say. Then Self walked us onto the ledge by his comments. Folks assume coach Self is smart. That he can at least manage his comments and understand the implications. Yet he is so bold as to make these sorts of comments just following Vick's departure, on a topic (Vick's attitude) that has been a topic of concern, and they not be connected? Or, more directly, that Self can't understand how a third grader might connect the comments to Vick? I'm not in the business of "100% proven." Heck, neither is the criminal justice system. That's not the standard there. It's a false standard that has zero relevance. No one is saying 100% true, though. The only way it's not linked is if Self is clueless, and I don't buy that -- his comments are most of the time very measured, except when he's mad.
But if you deny the obvious here, the clear likelihood that the comments are connected (given Self's aptitude with the media),the timing of the comments, the historical issues related to Vick, and the substance of the comments Self made (given it bears on Vick's historical issues), then such a black and white statement lacks all credibility.
Not sure why the reasonable possibility that comments related to Vick is so threatening? Heck, I applaud Self for the linkage (if ... uh, uh .. uh .. wink, wink .. the comments were related to Vick).
@nuleafjhawk Question - I guess I missed it. Who is blaming Vick for anything? Who is making him the scapegoat? Let's maybe avoid making Vick a victim here. I really sense no anger or resentment at Vick. I have none. He's just a knucklehead. But we knew he was a knucklehead. Self knew it. Self took a known quantity, and brought him back. Self knew Vick could not be relied upon. Self did this with his eyes wide open. Vick, sure, he's responsible for his behavior. But Self is responsible for the team. When Vick does something (we assume) that we could easily anticipate (a known, known), who's to blame?
If I park my car under a power line with birds on the line, who's fault is it that I need a car wash? Not the birds. Birds poop on cars. We know why Self brought him back -- we needed Vick after striking out on others. (Again, we can't be 100%, totally, unequivocally, without a shadow of a doubt, sure). It was a pragmatic move by Self that failed. I was completely in favor of bringing Vick back, as were many here and elsewhere. Sometimes the roll of the dice is worth it, sometimes not. I'd argue it was -- we lose a few games early without Vick. And if Vick allowed a lesson to be taught to the young guys, fine. I also thought it was nice to give Vick the second chance.
Quotes from Jerry Meyer that describe our unenviable landscape .. maybe a Lucas/Traylor-like spring.
https://247sports.com/Article/Kansas-Basketball-recruiting-FBI-case--129841509/ ↗
@Hawk8086 I think a lot of it with Dedric is that he’s just such a boring player to watch. He can’t jump. He’s a subpar athlete (relatively speaking). He does nothing spectacular that you remember. He barely runs sometimes. But he just chops wood. He has an incredible knack/skilll for finding his way to the best spot to get a rebound. Very skilled footwork wise with the ball. Soft touch near the hoop.
I’ve never seen a player like him. He puts up numbers but many times I can barely remember much of what he did.
We should also be thinking about possible 11, 12 and 13 seeds we don't want to see. Vermont, St. Johns, Murray St., Temple, New Mexico St (though they wouldn't do a rematch I don't think).
Love the title of this thread. What is third place?
Pretty amazing really the difference between winning and losing. Every sport is a game of inches.
@BeddieKU23 Agree with @Bwag there. Great post. This all will be very telling. As @Hawk8086 referenced, there is a current of discussion that suggests that our possibility of probation may make this difficult over the next number of months. We’ll see if that’s real or imagined.
@Texas-Hawk-10 I agree with much of what you said, as opinion goes. But one cannot ignore how the information lines up, and then, using common sense based on the history with Vick (more information), reach a reasonable conclusion. Folks are convicted and go to jail on such an analysis. Of course, that analysis is sometime wrong. Thus my “highly likely” qualification.
Additionally, I think dishonesty encompasses purposefully leaving out info that shows the true situation. I think we all agree on that. If one concludes Self was dishonest, which seems easy to conclude, one can also agree that such a approach is reasonable and even admirable, as I’ve said.
If one reads Selfs post-Vick comments, and doesn’t see the passive-aggressive linkage to Vick’s absence, then that’s fine. As with many topics, some only open their minds to what they want to see.
I can leave open the possibility of mere coincidence. And that it wasn’t even Self’s intent. Let’s go that road. But with that, his choice of words given the circumstances with Vick were then very poor if he was trying to avoid throwing Vick under the bus.
If Self is so smart, as some think he is, that would not have happened. Self is way too brilliant. Insert sarcasm emoji here.
It is entertaining though that some can’t see the possibility that Self did purposefully implicate Vick with his comments. That his statements might have evidenced a normal human reaction to a player he counted on letting him down. That he was making a point about locker room culture.
@KUSTEVE I never once insulted you. Just read above. Your antics are sad.
@mayjay @KUSTEVE To the important point. We can disagree. But can we start by being civil? I directed nothing to either of you in my posts before yours. You both though replied with canned attacks. From @KUSTEVE - "I know that doesn’t fit your anti-Self narrative" and "Your buddy Squeeky Weber would’ve had a nervous breakdown.", and then from @mayjay - "You seem to love kicking every player who leaves for any reason you deem unacceptable. Perhaps you know it all (your famed secret information) but I doubt it."
That does nothing to foster debate or discussion. I would offer that a more interesting approach might be to dissect my summary and show how I'm wrong.
I would also suggest an easy way to deal with this is to leave out that sort of stuff, and just focus on the facts. If not, that leads to a response that starts spinning the wrong way (and a while back, I decided I was kind of done turning the other cheek).
To the issue of discussion, it is highly likely, as I said, that the story is really a cover story. Is it true, or untrue? I don't think anyone now thinks its true. Who does? May we compliment Self for not embarrassing Vick too much? Sure. But that means Self was untruthful. No way to dress that up. But I understand, it's like lying about Santa Claus. Very good reasons.
But then, it's plain that his words following Vick's departure did throw Vick under the bus. How is that even deniable? The clear and not so subtle reminders that this team, this situation, and Self's enjoyment is much better -- all after Vick departed.
And @mayjay, I think you will agree that my post on the info that I heard on Vick was tactful, and done in a way to convey it reasonably. I wanted to just share it with this forum. Further, although I've heard things before, I've been very hesitant to post -- and on two high profile items, the info I heard turned out right on point. One of them the exact same source as this. But it is generally unreliable to use hearsay, and thus no need rumor monger. And that's how I've approached it. Rather, sometimes, I construct the facts to support the conclusion rather than cite that I have heard something. One such item was Lightfoot's broken nose.
@KUSTEVE Oh, another quick quote, this after the third game after Vick's departure: "I'm enjoying being around them and coaching more because there seems to be more positive energy," Self said. "It’s starting to get fun and fun is imperative." And after that same game, "If we had played better earlier, or played with this type of energy and freedom, I think that we’d be in a much more favorable position. But we didn’t."
It only takes a little bit to send you off the deep end. Right, though, a lot of coaches might have been less diplomatic. That goes to the "truth" element. And I blame Vick completely for his failure to capitalize on this opportunity. This is one that is 100% on the player (but by making such a comment, of course, I'll get grief for kicking a player when he's down). Either way, I don't care. Truth is truth. I've also said it is an admirable quality that Self protects his players. But that doesn't mean that it's not a lie, or significantly untrue. So I guess you believed the Tharpe departure story, too? The clear tone of Self's comments since Vick's departure has been to emphasize how much better things are for him and the team. Which is probably true ... but when the newly divorced wife proclaims how great life is now, how fun things are now, and bad things were earlier, that quite clearly implies something.
And I don't know why you'd bring up Weber. But you spelled Squeaky wrong. Actually, I do know why .. you float dishonest stuff to fit your anti-Self narrative. Easy.
@KUSTEVE Good grief. Yes, saw that. Obviously that’s a nice thing for Self to say.
But whatever clouds you are referring to may be obscuring your vision. That’s if we are actually wanting to view things with open eyes.
From a story on February 15, Vick left Feb 7.
“I kind of like where we’re at. I think it’s been fun,” said Self, whose Jayhawks (19-6, 8-4 Big 12) play host to last-place West Virginia (10-14, 2-9) at 3 p.m. Saturday. “I think the last week or so has been a lot of fun to be honest with you, just kind of tinkering and seeing guys develop right before your eyes.”
“It’s also a bunch of young kids out there having fun...”
@Texas-Hawk-10 Yea, I know that. I said that literally right after Vick was suspended. It seems highly likely that Self made up a story and lied. Not for sure. But highly likely. With Vick’s mom a part of it. I’m sure there will be some other info strategically leaked to try to support the narrative.
Of course, though, Self HAS thrown Vick directly under the bus since that time. We all know how. It has been far less than subtle — our locker room is so good now, we’re playing as a team, having fun coaching, etc.
Literally two days after Vick leaves, he’s extolling the virtues of the “best locker room we’ve had all year by far.”
So Vick, despite the ridiculous cover story, has been thrown directly under the bus by Self.
Of course, he probably deserves it. I’d just prefer it be more honest and up front instead of all the passive aggressive baloney from Self on this. It’s not a good look. In fact, it’s really a negative look.
@mayjay Oh, right, and you know. You can start in on you’re moralizing crap I guess if you see fit. Just making up something (that I have “disdain” for Vick) to suit your purposes is par for the course.
I’m well past believing anything that comes out of Self’s mouth on players. He protects players. Nice quality. But it is lying. Just like the Tharpe b.s. And on Brannen Greene.
And then, which is undeniable, he has not so subtly called out Vick as mentioned above. Really, his comments could not be more clear. Or you can act as if it didn’t happen.
Tharpe, Adams, Vick, Greene, Bragg, Giles. The land of the lost.
Vick not coming back for senior night is giving great credence to the belief that the “story” about his departure was actually a “cover story.”
His mom posted a picture of Legerald 5 days ago — really looked like he was needed back home.
It’s as if we’re stupid.
I hear there was a dossier created on Wade, that the dossier had unverified information in it, the dossier was paid for by Alabama fans, it was then turned over to the FBI, the FBI used this dossier to get the wire tap warrant, the FBI didn't tell the judge the source of the dossier, the FBI agents involved were Alabama alums and hated LSU, the FBI agents even texted with Justice department officials about how they hated LSU, the FBI was allegedly hoping to get information on a meeting with an Adidas rep, but they just so happened to put the wiretaps in a building where LSU was doing its game-planning for a big game with Alabama .... or something like that.