🏀 KuBuckets Archive

@mayjay I saw that too. When I read that, I interpreted it as needing an assurance of non-prosecution.

But .. as you mentioned .. BUT, they could be seeking review of the material that didn't make it into evidence. That's kind of concerning too.

Also, so we're saying we can't comment until after the trials in the spring? Great. Continued silence.

Back to the non-prosecution thing. The guys just convicted are facing 2-4 yrs per sentencing guidelines. That's concerning if they are squeezed for bigger fish.

I know @JayHawkFanToo mentioned that a guilty verdict when deem KU a true victim. But I don't think so when it comes to the individuals. Meaning, I don't think it protects individual actors (Self, KT, etc.) from prosecution as they could be deemed to have committed fraud too against KU. Same with players. Or the guardians.

Concerning stuff.

@JayHawkFanToo The NCAA punished Memphis for the Rose deal, that they supposedly didn't know about, right? If we play an ineligible player, regardless of prior knowledge, we can get hammered, clearinghouse or no clearinghouse, right?

And you think the FBI doesn't have more info? Why would you think that?

Where's @stupidmichael when we need him ...

@mayjay Working backward. I think, of course, Adidas knew this was going on. If the Adidas folks involved were outside their course and scope of employment, Adidas couldn't be held to account for their actions. But I think they were doing this with company knowledge. We all probably do. Too big in scope with Nike, UA, etc.

Regarding your paragraph on shareholder reports, no issue there.

On the potential lawsuits, I agree. In fact, I assume a few civil claims could be fashioned -- but all premised upon KU's lack of knowledge of the activity. Of course, you would agree, that any lawsuit would be DOA if that were true. And never filed because of the discovery process that KU would want to avoid. We are talking theory, though.

And civil suits are brought in corporate contests all the time. It's many times a corporate strategy. I give little weight to whether someone might get sued, outside of related criminal conduct.

Even if KU didn't know, I do not think a tortious interference with contract would make sense. KU had no "deal" with the recruits. They were free agents so to speak. No LOI was signed. In fact, Adidas, in the spirit of competition, could go to a recruit, pay him $1 million to play for a Spanish team and wear Adidas shoes (unless prohibited by their deal with KU -- which it wasn't). That would make him ineligible. However, if the recruit had signed the LOI, it might become more dicey there, but I've never heard about a tortious interference claim, even against a slimy agent enticing a kid out. Open to hearing other logic on that.

But your point on implied "good faith" (and fair dealing) elements, I agree, could create a claim of some sort. Nothing clear on that, though. Or there could be a contractual provision. Again, though, KU couldn't have been working with them in this venture to get players, or that would be a nullity. I'm sure you agree there. "Unclean hands", right? Estoppel?

I think your statement that my point is "technically" true then begs whether there are any exceptions. I think you ID'd one that could be fashioned ... but if KU knew of the actions, then it would not have any foundation.

@BShark I truly cannot think of a more insulting comment one can direct to another. Suggesting that one would be fine with the killing of thousands. What a sick a**hole you are. But thank you. When you say something like that, it provides some unequivocal insight.

And again, of course, based on the simple suggestion that Bill Self act with honesty and integrity, and follow the rules he agreed to follow; and for providing rationale as to why Adidas, as a separate entity, should not be bound by the same rules.

That translates to the conclusion that I'd support the killing of thousands. Demented.

@Kcmatt7 It's not one sentence hyperbole. Re-read what you wrote. More than one sentence. You always think you bring up valid points. I have addressed each of your points prior, in total. Apply to what you have typed. You speculate on the IRS, you have no clue on "reporting" of transactions and accounting, you have no clue regarding what shareholders are entitled to, and you seem to be focused on what was done internally by Adidas folks. You continue to miss and ignore the significant difference -- Self is bound by the NCAA rules, Adidas is not. No one should be held to account for rules enacted by independent organizations or entities. If you can't see that difference, or refuse to recognize it because it doesn't fit your narrative, that's not my problem.

Connecting the dots for you ... the hyperbole in comparing the simple suggestion of honesty and integrity to "Jesus on the cross" (and the trivialization that is clearly your point). That is idiocy. That is tripe.

And of course, you stray into territory reserved for a few other posters. You mock me, "Mr. Integrity", referencing my "moral code", etc. Then act with indignation when it is turned on you ( your reference -- "... who lacks integrity in his ordinary life.").

@Kcmatt7 You are just being ridiculous. Simply being honest and having integrity is not painting yourself as Jesus. Or maybe it is so out of the ordinary to you that it is. I don't know. That's what that sort of tripe sounds like. I can't believe I'm even responding to that sort of idiocy.

@Kcmatt7 Just so you know .. just because something is done in a manner you don't prefer, it doesn't make it "illegal." I said nothing about "amount" though. Nothing. Adidas paid players with Adidas money. You're lost. If they did something illegal in their accounting, I'm open to listening.

And you're just comical. Really, you make laugh. It's sad, too. Because someone believes in being honest and acting with integrity, it gets mocked. But it's a certain element of our society that looks down on that sort of thing, and trivializes it, so I get it.

@mayjay So you know, I'm not setting up the lawyer like "bright line test". I understand that there is some grey. And there can be grey in recruiting violations. It's not hard to follow rules, to be honest, and to act with integrity. I'm sure that's how you handle your affairs. Attorneys get a bad wrap, but integrity and ethics is very important to most in the profession. I take it you agree with me on the fiduciary part and the significant difference between Adidas and Self.

@Kcmatt7 If you could, please identify the relevant corporate records that were falsified. You know, the ones you analyze before you buy a stock .. yes, I'm laughing. Hint: an expense report from an employee doesn't count. Just helping out there. And yes, if Adidas falsified certain corporate documents, then sure, I'll listen. On the other hand, offering "enormous sums of money" is good business. Troubling as that might be to some. There is no rule or law that says you have to have a written contract to do so, just thinking ahead on what the next complaint might be.

@mayjay Not taking the bait. You understand the term "duty" right? Adidas has no "duty" to the NCAA. They are not a fiduciary. Bill Self does have a "duty" to KU. You know it's completely different. Further, if KU (their contractual partner) knew of payments and conspired, not sure how KU does anything but applaud. I would agree that the issue of whether certain corporate documents were falsified would be an issue for shareholders. Never heard that connected to this. Paying athletes to wear your product at a school you have contract with seems like good business (assuming that was deemed good business by Adidas).

It is not a strict standard of integrity to simply be honest and not violate the rules you contractually agreed to comply with, all the while understanding that if you violate the rules, the program you've been entrusted with could suffer significant consequences. May sound strict to some, like @mayjay, but not to me.

Excellent information.

I would offer that the shoe companies are not corrupt at all. They are in business to make money and further their brand. They are great companies. I have seen nothing really anywhere that indicate they are corrupt. They have a duty to their shareholders.

The corruption lies with the schools, coaches, players, and parents/guardians. They violate the rules. They are the only ones that can be punished by rules violations (parents/guardians by punishment to the player they are interested in). Further, the schools are the NCAA, they determine policy. So any lax enforcement is on the schools.

I also have trouble using the word "corruption" when it is solely internal rules violations. But it seems to work here.

@drgnslayr I do think there is a good answer. It's simple and easy. Don't cheat. If I know we're clean, and we fail to land top talent because others cheat, I can live with that. I just would like to have that information. If KU (Self, AD, Administration) has a gripe with the NCAA, then it's incumbent on them to deal with that, and to do so publicly if necessary.

I am very hopeful that hearing from Bill Self will steer this in the right direction. This can be a moment of leadership at its best.

@JayHawkFanToo You can see how dishonest the prosecution was here. They were just successful in keeping certain information out of evidence, thus they could craft their closing around the "evidence" at the trial (which, of course, they have to do).

Integrity and honesty are easier than you think.

@BShark What would explain how a team with the recruiting you refer to, coming off of a NC, would then have recruiting issues?

@mayjay Good points. I had made the point as well regarding a distinct lack of info related to the corruption. Something I would expect (south of the mafia). Part of the evidence against widespread corruption is the lack of information suggesting the same. I would assume more chatter. You would think that all DeSousa would have to do, to get a full release from KU is suggest he might blow the whistle. Posture that if he can't play elsewhere he doesn't care if he's ineligible then. Or that the dad of the kid not getting the "bag of money" might cozy up to some willing reporter. Or a girlfriend that knows. People can't keep their mouths shut and social media makes that even more obvious.

Information is negotiating leverage.

Further, why would "Fenny" have to give back the UA money? What are they going to do? Why would Adidas feel it needed to help pay back UA?

Perhaps it's the code of conduct. Er, Mafia like. Integrity within corruption.

@mayjay If the kids moved to Hawaii and you might also get a bottle of scotch on Father's day, I wonder, why not move to Hawaii?

@DoubleDD Perhaps you. If others were cheating, because the professor was lax in paying attention during an exam, does that then justify you cheating as well to keep up (assuming the class is graded on a curve)? If so, why? If not, why not? What action would you take with this knowledge?

And I would not make assumptions about what I'd say. I expect KU's coach to play by the rules. Period. And if others are breaking the rules, then to take action to help ensure rules enforcement. You're thinking like a cheater.

It's not hard:

KC Star Reporter Jesse Newell: Coach, there have been major questions about KU's recruiting. Why are we missing on top players?

Self: Because we won't pay players.

Newell: What? Others are paying players.

Self: They are. Nike gave a kid $80,000 to go to Duke. We were given a chance to match. We said no. A UK booster bought a kid's mom a car. We won't do that. I know we love coach Roy around here, but UNC arranged a payment of $50,000 to the guardian of a they guy we just missed on.

See, cat out of the bag. Integrity. Or, one chooses to play the game.

I know which Bill Self I'd prefer.

We'll see how this plays out now that the cat have been publicly and painfully forced out of the bag. Remember that -- forced out. None of this is voluntary now.

@cragarhawk You said, "You’re missing the point. Once someone is dishonest with you about even the smallest of things… you absolutely will begin to question the largest of things. Human nature. If you don’t know this already brother. I sincerely hope and pray that you never first hand find out."

Excellent.

The Venn diagram comment is without merit, in my opinion.

1. If what folks say is true, that all high level CBB is crooked, then everyone is on the same playing field. Our crooked guy is just competing. Thus any recruiting complaints are relative.

2. If what folks say is NOT true, and all high level CBB is NOT crooked, then our guy, who is apparently crooked, should be landing better classes given the crookedness (money) in his corner.

3. If what folks say is NOT true, and NO high level CBB programs are crooked, then like point #1, everyone is on the same playing field. Our guy is just competing with other clean programs. Thus any recruiting complaints are relative.

Here's what I think MAY be true. Self may not have led the way with others into crookedness. I think the evidence shows that, possibly, he switched course and descended into crookedness - referencing some weaker KU recruiting classes and then landing Wiggins. (this is a theory, to those prone to lash out with anger -- you know, a discussion point). I know some think the same game was played back to and before our NC season. I don't know.

Further, the retrospective reference to recruiting classes vs. Self being a saint, doesn't make sense to me. So it's inconsistent to have questioned the quality of our recruiting classes in the past while at the same time wanting our coach to be clean when this garbage comes out?

I don't really have dog in the recruiting class fight because I've been one who has wanted to abandon the chase for the OADs, and was more accepting of lower ranked players.

There was a point in time I mentioned that Bill Self was selling his soul for OADs. Some different context, of course. But if Self REACTED and CHANGED based on what others were doing (perhaps the Calipari thing at UK; perhaps getting beat in the NC game by UK) -- by conspiring with Adidas to pay players -- that would make sense to me in this timeline.

Was Wiggins the first guy?

And if you get recruiting classes like Wisconsin, the got to the NC game -- when everyone was supposedly crooked.

This is why strict enforcement is the best path for KU. If Self is such a good recruiter, and we have the Kansas brand, wouldn't that make us even more attractive -- on an even playing field?

@drgnslayr You know why it smells of a conspiracy? Because it is a conspiracy.

Bill Self could have done a press conference already and said, "We don't cheat, we haven't taken part in it, I've confirmed with our staff, we don't pay players, and we don't use or conspire with third parties to pay players."

I want to hear from Bill Self.

@Kcmatt7 @BShark The NCAA (and really the schools) have a choice. Either take enforcement seriously, or take the uncharted path that leads to professional athletes. The NCAA could, I guess, try to stay status quo. I can't see that being realistic.

What's cheaper - putting money into enforcement, or paying player? That might be the answer. I'd bet enforcement. In the wake of all of this, the NCAA could make a proclamation. It gives all coaches a pass on past indiscretions, and moving forward, here's the hammer.

That would save CBB.

@Kcmatt7 No it’s not. The model is scholarships, no pay, student athlete. I have no qualms admitting that the model has been deteriorated by the lack of enforcement. I’m in favor of strict enforcement. But as you and others have correctly stated, it has been corrupted.
.

The only problem with the NCAA model is a lack of strict enforcement.

@BShark Thank you for the distinction. Your title did not say Obama and THE Rice commission. It said “Obama and Rice Commission”, which is different.

But it interestingly points out my belief that politics likely motivated this prosecution. Bill Self is in the crosshairs because of Obama’s view (surprise, surprise) that players are exploited. Chew on that possibility.

@DoubleDD If only it were the end of the discussion ...

You said, "Sadly KU fans as a whole feel the same way as you @HighEliteMajor. They want all this greatness but by following the rules."

Yea, quite the unreasonable demand. Integrity. Honesty. Pie in the sky stuff.

Not sure why I should be disappointed in myself. I'm not a liar and a cheater.

So how is the commission and Obama Commission? It was Condoleezza Rice.

Anyway, folks will still whine that players need to be paid in the NCAA.

And folks will still ignore that players still play CBB, this proving the true value of what players are given.

I want the truth.

Why? Because I CAN handle the truth.

I want a commitment from KU that we will NOT cheat, that we will NOT be complicit in cheating on our behalf by third parties, and that KU will FIRE cheaters.

I want KU then to privately posture to the NCAA that if any punishment is leveled at KU that KU will expose everything it knows about everyone, and burn the house down.

I want KU to demand an NCAA statement that implicates everyone, or we will expose everything we know about everyone, and burn the house down.

Why? Because KU was the one caught up in a prosecution that could have nailed any larger program. So we aren’t taking one for the team. We will burn it down.

Then I want the NCAA (and schools) to turn the ship around, be hard ass regarding enforcement, and demand compliance. Never pay players. If you don’t like the product and what is offered, don’t play. Be very clear that those that want money need to go somewhere else to earn it. And let the chips fall where they may.

It will be interesting to see how the university handles this after the trial and verdict. Do they admit the wrong doing? Do they make Self face the media? Do they essentially "take the 5th" because there could be further charges? Do they fire KT as the sacrificial lamb? Does the chancellor demand accountability? Does the AD challenge the "cheating" culture? Does KU commit to a clean program, no payments, no Adidas help, moving forward?

The university has to respond to this, right?

Or, does ... everyone ... just ... act ... like ... nothing ... happened?

Have we already seen the net result -- Markese Jacobs decommitting because he wasn't paid (?) and KU gaining commitments from 100ish guys? No commits from anyone near a high-level recruit status?

The lead story at ESPN.com. How lovely.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/25018425/attorney-adidas-executive-says-20k-payment-only-made-request-kansas-jayhawks-coach-bill-self ↗

@kjayhawks One thing we haven't discussed -- what if the broad range of other schools are not doing this? I know that seems a bit far-fetched. But what if there are some that aren't in this conspiracy?

@Kcmatt7 The moral equivalency crap is an historically weak argument, one that is used by the worst of society to justify all conduct. I hope you understand the company that is kept with that argument. So, under your logic, you'd associate jaywalking with murder? See, that's how easy your argument fails?

With that, no one is saying an NCAA rules violation is murder. But the prosecution suggests it is a felony. A felony isn't jaywalking.

But the NCAA rules and violating them, isn't a felony (standing alone, outside of the "defrauding" argument).

However, we are talking about a coach entrusted to steward and protect our program and the history of KU basketball. A coach contractually required to follow NCAA rules,. A coach that knows the rules. A coach that knows the repercussions of violations. This is even more important to me than whether something amounts to a crime -- he has breached the trust of KU alumni.

Now, those of you who don't care, you don't care. You never will. And I'm sure you won't care then if I break into your car and steal your IPhone, you know, because everyone drinks a beer when they're under 21.

@cragarhawk Very well said.

@Woodrow - I think @cragarhawk's point is that when we talk about other coaches and programs, we (collectively) have thrown significant mud. When it's turned on us, then some become hypocrites.

So, if you learned that Calipari gave 1% of his salary each year in cash to each scholarship player, I'd assume then you're ok with that?

And no, most people don't believe the players should be paid. That's a completely unsupported statement. A large majority of folks I've discussed the topic with believe the value of the college education in dollars is sufficient compensation. And when you discuss all of the issues involved - choice, contracts, private entities, who owns the product, who owns the facilities, etc., - the narrative changes. When folks consider the facts, and how business works, then opinions change. If they simply don't like bosses, owners, companies, etc., which many don't, you aren't changing those opinions. They live in a world of entitlement.

it is a billion dollar business. Of course it is. So what? That doesn't entitle the non-owners to anything. That's the concept that you and others just ignore.

@BShark "They make millions for free." Who? Oh, you mean the owners? The ones that own the stadiums, own the other facilities, own the product, negotiate the contracts, and make the offers to players that are accepted (meaning the contracts)? I know, it's unfair. Workers of the world, unite.

The rules are a joke to you. The rules are joke to you because they permit the owners to make money you want redistributed. The players are entitled to nothing. Zero. And they don't have to participate. But that creates difficulty in the narrative.

The kids don't have to be paid. They just don't. That's an opinion, not fact. There is no support for that statement, factually. It's like saying you have to legalize something because there is a black market for whatever is sold illegally.

On the other hand, the NCAA (which is really the member schools) have to decide on their business model. If it better to pay players, that's the call they have to make. If it's better to strengthen the rules, and enforcement, resulting in many top players doing something else, then do that (which I'm all for -- because I think the product will not suffer). I don't need to see Andrew Wiggins in CBB.

That all said, it's why the FBI prosecution is a joke to me. We're talking about internal rules set up to aid a business venture (NCAA). And a private company (Adidas) acting in their best interests to aid their profit margin paid players. So what?

@BShark Ok, if KU gets Ms. Preston a job with a local bank, and she's paid $120,000 per year. That's not a violation? Of course, extreme example. But extremes demonstrate the point sometimes.

I am assuming that KU setting a parent up with a job, with a third party, would be a violation of NCAA rules. Do you have info to the contrary?

@SkinnyKansasDude - You said, "Someone of unquestionable integrity who has been rumored to have been cheating on his wife since he set foot in Kansas and probably long before that. This attitude of putting Coach on a pedestal is unrealistic and tiring. Bill Self is a genius but he’s playing the game that every coach in America is playing. Am I surprised? No. Am I disappointed? No. I’m just mad we got caught."

Initially, I wonder how the Bill Self is God crowd (now with the focus on his character) will reply, related to your comment. I had always used the "Bill Self is God" phrase related to his basketball decision making -- how many simply felt his decision-making is/was beyond even discussion. Always gives me a chuckle thinking back on the irrational hysterics.

You make a very good point. If he's cheating on his wife, he'll cheat elsewhere. I should have been smarter.

Look, he's off the pedestal in my eyes now. That ship has sailed. I was naïve and stupid.

And no, Bill Self is not a "genius." He's a basketball genius.

But your last statement, "I'm just mad we got caught", is your opinion. I understand. I personally think that this sort of mentality is disgusting. It's disgusting to me on many levels. I can't imagine a day when character and integrity are not important to me.

@BShark So you want our coach to willingly and purposefully violate NCAA rules?

@mayjay Maybe she’d prefer to make $14 .. the hard way.

https://m. ↗

Reminder, the hiring of Ed Manning and Ronnie Chalmers was not prohibited by NCAA rules.

@BShark Regarding the comment about paying players not being illegal .. I agree with you. In fact, I was very clear on my opinion of that when the entire FBI deal started. I didn't think it amounted to "fraud."

However, as we've seen, the prosecutor thinks it is illegal because it defrauds the university. Buying that logic, Self, KT, and the players are co-conspirators. With Self and KT, no different than if an office manager stole from her company. And actually, in my mind, that has better logic than a criminal case against an employee of a separate organization (Adidas) competing in the marketplace.

I do like your comment -- "the sham of 'amateur athletics' and 'non-profit' is only there to trick people."

I guess I do feel that I generally understand the business model and the entire dynamic with the NCAA, and what it's about. Lots of discussion on that. But I guess I felt that it was not necessary to pay players (if it is/was, then that indicates a lack of understanding on my part, to be sure). I thought, of course, that certain programs did it. But that we didn't, that we didn't have to, and that it wasn't widespread. In large part because we never hear of a 30 year old former player saying, "yeah, I got $30k from UK." The silence indicated something to me.

I just don't (yet) buy your narrative where you suggest the payments to all these players. But I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm rethinking my thoughts on all of this.

@Kcmatt7 You said, "It’s really only “morally bankrupt” if you think breaking arbitrary rules, set by a multi-billion dollar non-profit, that exploits athletes, are moral in the first place."

I cannot imagine a worse response. Perhaps I'll break into your car, steal your phone, because the laws were made by folks that exploit the common man and are unfair to those that don't have phones.

And, of course, you ignore the entire concept that all participating in NCAA basketball are doing so by choice, with the current rules. We've done this dance before. That irrefutable. What you describe is your feelings or opinion, which is fine -- how you feel about rules and laws is nice. But it doesn't change the fact that they are the rules and law. And you're advocating ignoring them because of how you feel.

Or worse, justifying the blatant violations by our head coach.

And in particular, we're talking about the man with more money than anyone else involved, who is the one at the tip of spear of your complaints. He would have to be the lead "exploiter of athletes." No one profits more personally than Bill Self.

@mayjay My "looting" reference was not of the stealing to survive mentality. But to your point, I can't buy the logic (and I know you're just pointing out how some may view it as a discussion item -- and I think you may be right on how they view it. But I think it is the wrong view namely because it really isn't about survival).

Really, and I'd ask everyone to think about this -- does anyone think that Bill Self gets the money he gets from Kansas without a big shoe deal? Bill Self is paid by Adidas -- not directly like some coaches -- but he is paid.

What if Bill Self was a truly moral man that just blew the whistle? Exposed the system. Declared "we're not paying." Declared that KU is dead clean, play for the best program in the country.

And this isn't where Self wouldn't have a job if he stopped participating in this stuff. He would. And he'd still make millions. Just not as much, and perhaps not as successfully. No FF without DeSousa last season, I think we can agree.

He made the choice not to survive (as @mayjay alluded to as being a possible thought process), but to thrive (and to win it all). That is much different.

@mayjay You made quite a statement, as follows: "There do seem to be a few who are almost gleeful in feeling their cynicism has been ratified. I think they were the 4th graders who kept telling kindergartners there is no Santa."

Can you please identify anyone happy or gleeful with all of this?

I would have to say that @Crimsonorblue22 has expressed my sentiments a bit more succinctly than I was able to do. She said, "@Woodrow my love for Self and KT is diminished. Just the way I am, it’s how I brought up my kids and it’s how my parents brought me up. Think of me however you wish, it doesn’t bother me." Perfect.

When my faith is broken, it's greatly disappointing to me.

It's just how I view things.

@Kcmatt7 To be very clear, I can tell you exactly what I expected of Bill Self -- not to engage in a conspiracy to pay players. I have read for years how many, many folks here (and elsewhere) expressed that there was no way Bill Self would be tied up in something like this. This has been the overwhelming -- nearly 100% -- sentiment. In fact, I can't think of one time on this site (among the regulars) that anyone has said that Bill Self was engaged in this stuff. He had too much integrity. After all, he wasn't Calipari. I was one who felt confident he wasn't involved in anything like this. I am hopeful that you're not suggesting that Townsend just did whatever he was doing totally without the knowledge of Bill Self -- you're not saying that, are you?

It is obvious that some now want to turn this into a , "So what, everyone else does it" thing. Or a, "That's how the game is played" thing.

If there's anything that disgusts me, it's the looter's mentality. Everyone else is doing it, so I can be morally bankrupt.

But again, I think my feeling is more of just disappointment. I'm not angry at our staff. I get it. It's just not the same now.

@Hawk8086 Unfortunately, I guess I believed that it wasn't happening at Kansas. That we were led by a man of unquestionable integrity and that he wasn't doing it like some others might have been. I do believe that there are high character folks. And I thought Bill Self was in that category. And for folks to now say that, oh, that's how CBB operates, is quite hollow.

@mayjay So, if I commented in response that @KUSTEVE would be easier to understand if he took Bill Self's Di** out of his mouth, that's an effort to communicate? I would certainly think not. But with that sort of post coming at me, that's a quick and easy way (though a distasteful way) of making my point.

Quite frankly, the entire idea of this anger and animosity that always seems to come from some people in response to a simple thread is sad.

@BShark No, it's not giving me sh. So when I respond, is that me just giving him sh? We've been there before. Somehow when I stick back up @KUSTEVE's a, as I've done before, it is not just me giving him sh?

@BShark I'm sorry, but how is @KUSTEVE's post a differing opinion?

I continue to be amazed by posts like @KUSTEVE's. And amazed that folks approve of this stuff. By my count already, four upvotes, one by a site administrator.

Is this really what we want on this site?

Someone takes time to create a thread, on an important topic that impacts the program we love, and this is the type of garbage that is acceptable here?

From a guy that goes back to Kusports.com, a guy who worked hard to get material on this site as it started, and a guy that made continued efforts to post significant basketball related analysis for years, it's really just sad.

Stuff like this begs a response, but what happens is the response throws the thread into chaos. If you respond, then we get threats of locking down the thread, which is exactly what folks like @KUSTEVE want.

Again, is this what we want from this site?

@BShark My candy coated view of Bill Self. A man I viewed as having a level of integrity beyond reproach.

I am so disappointed. I have lived under a false illusion. I was naive. I believed. I had faith.

While I have enjoyed the banter in past years related to Bill Self's on court decisions, I have held one thing to be true -- we have a coach of extremely high character, one that we can be proud of.

I don't believe any more.

I've read comments here, and around the twisted world of social media. I am just flat embarrassed by what some KU fans will say to spin this. Look at the FBI thread here. Spinning the information to try and hold on to the illusion of innocence, or what can be "proven."

Guys, we all need to get real. We are not a lawyer for the head of a crime family. The issue is not whether we can get off, or pay off a juror, or not get punished. I hope everyone grasps that.

We all need to understand that it is over. We were in one place before this trial began, and now we're in another place now. Different worlds. One world was predictable and easy. The other world is laced with land mines and dangerous.

One of my fears in this prosecution was that it could target the pristine guy. The one that was held beyond reproach. The guy who seemed to be the perfect coach. Why? To get that big time conviction. To make the news. And to destroy the NCAA (whom a certain segment despises -- the misguided "exploitation of athletes" crowd). I'm not surprised.

The question was, why bother targeting Gatto, etc? Very small fish. And I answered the question at the time. To get to the more important targets.

Everything changes now. Would anyone be surprised if this thing takes on a life of its own? That the media firestorm becomes immense? That the KC Star makes this their focal point?

Would you be surprised if by season's end Bill Self is not the head coach at Kansas?

Heck, would it surprise you if Kansas demanded return of salary from Bill Self based on a breach of contract?

Would you be surprised if a criminal charge is filed against Bill Self for conspiring to defraud the University of Kansas? Or first against an assistant coach as the appetizer?

Would it surprise you if there is a nasty little wiretap floating around out there?

To the point I made in one of my first posts after this entire story broke last spring -- the prosecutor could really be focusing on the high profile target and developing the case. Getting his witnesses. If the prosecutor gets convictions, do you think it possible that the newly convicted felons, on the precipice of a stint doing federal time, might spill the beans?

What should be concerning is the prosecutor's desires here. And the motives of the prosecution.

But irrespective of a future prosecution, this could still mushroom into a disgusting spectacle for the program we love.

Nothing should surprise you.

And please don't suggest that there is no "proof" that Bill Self knew that Adidas paid players. This insults everyone's intelligence.

And please don't suggest there is "no way" any of the scenarios I referenced above could happen.

I can assure you, we are entering a very new arena. It is extremely treacherous. There are many twists and turns to come.

But whatever. We're along for the ride, like it or not.

Regardless, I will never, ever look at Bill Self the same way again. When you truly believe something about a person, and that belief is shattered, it just makes you feel stupid.

It is over. And I am wildly disappointed.

@Kcmatt7 Remember, we have rights under the constitution. The 2nd amendment was an important one. Would it matter if I proved to you that crime would go down 99% if we eliminated the 4th amendment ban on unreasonable searches and seizures?

I have no idea what you mean on the Catholic church. Has nothing to do with me or conservatives.

I love oil. I love gas. It's amazing we pay less for a gallon of gas than a gallon of milk, given where and how you get it. But you don't understand conservatives on the environment. Most don't.

If you equate "personal responsibility" with "selfishness", reading what wrote, you ain't trackin'.

This country was built on conservative principles, which you forget, were progressive at the time. The Federalist Papers might be a great place to start.

See, as we discuss this, you and I could make deals. We disagree on some points but could easily find a middle ground.

And I do believe in the right to "bare" arms. I believe in the right to hairy arms too.

@Kcmatt7 Not so sure I'm purposefully ignorant -- meaning your reference to the right. I'm really not trying to be ignorant. Some suggest it comes naturally, of course.

Anyway, your point on Bill Clinton and his policies is excellent. Compare that to the Democratic party now, and to Trump.

When you suggest we plug our ears, remember, that's another way of saying that we're principled. Many times, conservatives are principled to a fault. That will happen.

But guns isn't one of those issues. Remember on your "gun violence" deal and this goes to the principles of the conservatism. It's personal responsibility. It is why conservatism is and has been consistent. We believe in hard work, self-sufficiency, smaller government, and personal responsibility. It is the culture of violence that causes the most problematic issues related to guns, and that culture of violence has nothing to do with conservatism. Someone pulls the trigger for a reason. That's the issue. The person pulling the trigger. And this is important -- and a key difference -- liberals seek to place responsibility on anything but the person. Further, conservatism demands a respect for the rule of law and recognition of Judeo-Christian values. Conservatives support free trade, an open economy, lower regulation and interference. We support a strong and aggressive nation defense, as that is the core function of government -- to protect our rights and keep us safe. It's really quite simple. As with liberalism, never confuse the principles with those with human failings that support those principles. At its core, conservative principles have made this country great. But the progress of society, and changes on multiple social issues, can be credited to the liberals.

When you say there is no good side, I disagree. Follow the core, proven principles. In this political environment, it's hard to follow men or women. What they do is most important to me.

@wissox The positions on guns and immigration have not changed at all. When the left attacks the 2nd amendment, conservatives respond. When they don't, we're quiet. Same with immigration. The lack of enforcement of our borders has caused a reaction which appears more harsh. But it's really the same. Follow the law. Immigrate legally.

8/15/18 The perfect example of "fiction" from the KC Star. The Star has been on the open borders, pro "bring any immigrant to the country regardless of background, values, and security" bandwagon for quite some time. No bigger evidence is the laughable front page coverage of some anonymous Lawrence chemist. Today, the Star again provides front page reporting on this non-story. Read the story. The Star claims that the proper deportation proceedings led to a "grass roots revolt." Again, a joke. There was no revolt. A small number of folks holding signs isn't a revolt. Online petitions aren't a "revolt." Just purposeful and dishonest hyperbole. The Star, by it's prior front page coverage, created the purported importance of the news. Try this -- follow the law. Enforce the law. Send the illegals back to where they came from. Every one of them has a sob story. Most have families. But that's not the standard that should be utilized. Let's focus on getting folks here legally, and with high scrutiny. That's the stark difference between left and right. Remember, the KC Star and the left want everyone to be here. They operate on feelings, and the law, and logic are secondary. See the last three links. The left doesn't care about that story. EXTREMIST MUSLIMS ARE A SCOURGE ON THIS EARTH AND SHOULD NOT BE PERMITTED IN THIS COUNTRY UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. The problem is, when they come, how do you ferret out the freaks? Donald Trump, Jr. made the best comment during the campaign. if you were given a bowl of Skittles and you knew two or three were poisonous, would you eat one? Remember, entry to this country is a privilege and not a right. We can scrutinize who we allow in with great detail. And I'm always interested to hear the silence -- the crickets -- from the "other Muslims" when it comes to the extremists. Do they speak out? Do they condemn? Do they create groups that combat the extremists (those that murder, rape, and destroy) and challenge their approach? Sound familiar?

And the fact is, the story that is contained in the final links are far more newsworthy that some chemist in Lawrence who failed to ensure that he was legal -- the most important thing in his life, perhaps. But not important enough to take care of, apparently. This is the KC Star manufacturing the importance of news, to fit their political narrative.

https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article216660415.html ↗

https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article200121229.html ↗

https://fox43.com/2018/08/14/sheriff-woman-arrested-at-extremist-muslim-new-mexico-compound-moved-to-federal-custody/ ↗

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/08/08/man-arrested-at-extremist-muslim-new-mexico-compound-was-training-kids-to-commit-school-shootings-documents.html ↗

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/08/14/woman-arrested-at-extremist-muslim-new-mexico-compound-moved-to-federal-custody-sheriff-says.html ↗

It is pure fiction to suggest that the GOP has moved further right. Just an irrational slant from someone who is a leftist. The GOP is no further right than it was in the 70s, or when Reagan was president in the 80s, or when it opposed Clinton, or elected George W. Bush. In reality, the GOP is less conservative on social issues, and the former budget hawks have relented to the swamp, and the massive deficits.

The biggest shift we see now, really just in the last 5 years, is a hard push in the Democratic party to go further left. Just listen to Obama talk about immigration a few years ago and pull quotes from Democratic politicians. Democrats have always been the party that shunned personal responsibility, but the race baiting and identity politics has gone to a new level, even for that bunch.

No, the GOP has not gotten more conservative.

Perhaps the most telling in the difference between the sides. "Conservative" has always been a badge of honor. Democrats run from their identity.

Lagerald Vick, all conference.

8/12/18 - Big surprise. A coordinated effort among newspapers to attack the president. Truth is, that's all it's been since he started winning primaries. He fought back. He took the fight directly to people through Twitter. And the national media when bananas. They could not take their credibility being challenged. "Fake news" is the entire package -- failing to report successes, minimizing positive news, running "commentary" as it is news, holding yourself out as an objective source while attacking based on political beliefs. It's the same song and dance. Now, newspapers are coordinating editorials to combat the attack on free press. REALITY CHECK - ITS AN ATTACK ON THE PROPAGANDA WING OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY. The press was Obama's lap dog. Where was the watchdog press then? The mainstream media is a joke, and President Trump has called them on it. Now they whine like spoiled brats they are.

https://money.cnn.com/2018/08/11/media/boston-globe-free-press-editorial/index.html ↗

I thought leftist is a badge of honor among you folks. I didn’t realize that’s name calling. What is the correct term — I mean, you all have introduced the varying pronoun nonsense, so I’ll play along.

You have demonstrated my point. Fox is mainstream media. You have Fox, and then you have ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, and nearly every major newspaper. Is this even a discussion point?