Self keeps Ellis in there even though he has been wildly ineffective. Rest the guy.
JhawkAlum
317 posts
I probably needed to be slapped in the face by this. Good post!
@REHawk No pun intended!
@brooksmd Of course I loved the WVU game! That is one of the few. But even that Game, they played one of the worst games of the season, then played outstanding and believable the last 10 minutes. I could throw in game in Austin and Waco of games I came away believing we are on the up kick.
TCU is better but they are not a "good" team by any means.
@jaybate-1.0 I sure hope you're right brother! If KU goes deep by playing "bad ball" and everything you say comes reality, you will be forever known as the "Rock Chalk Oracle" to me.
@lulufulu I see the toughness, but can a team go to an elite 8 or final 4 on toughness alone? I sure hope they can!
I am naturally optimistic when it comes to KU. Last year, I saw a final four team. The year before that, I saw an elite 8 team and maybe final four. Even in football, I look at every year like they could put something together and get a few wins.
But this team is different.
During the Big 12, I tried not to worry about tourney time until we locked up the league. Now since that's accomplished, I have been able to reflect on the year and attempt to look into the future. And what I see isn't too bright.
I have said in the past that I see an elite 8 but I officially retract that statement.
We all have seen and wrote about the glaring holes in this team. Lack of shot blockers, back to the basket scoring, slump with shooting, Self not willing to make adjustments, rebounding, and the rest. But that isn't what worries me.
In the past, I have been able to look at the weaknesses and counter with a strength. But honestly, what is their strength? 3 point shooting? Toughness? Furthermore, the scariest aspect of this team is maybe the fact that I have very rarely been proud of a game they have played. One of the best games I was happy to watch was against OU when they lost! Other than 2 or 3 games, I have always left the game wanting more. And that is something I am unfamiliar with.
What is the saving grace of this team that won't equal a 2nd round loss? Today just added to the list of games that I am unhappy with regardless of the final. Someone, please bring light and turn me back to a "half-full" kind of guy!
It's a bad omen when we are trying to ride Lucas to victory.
I say rest Selden's ankle, give Greene and Svi some extra minutes and see how they respond.
You never know when you'll need Svi to get some spot minutes in the tourney to hit some shots similar to what Conner did for us last year.
What do you guys think?
Lol anyone remember this in one of JBs post?
(Sorry, I don't know how to make it into a link)
I would have hoped we would put this Ken Pomeroy guy out of minds. For goodness sake, the guy put a statistical category for "luck". How can one honestly quantify a thing like luck?
Did it count for WVU when Ellis missed the layup as luck? Or did they see Staten throw him off with a great effort? Or what about Johnson for KSU hitting those three's when his percentage is terrible for the season? Or was that on KUs terrible Defense that game?
It is literally impossible to attempt to calculate luck. It is simply something for Pomeroy to cover his arse when his prediction don't match up with the outcome.
Rest easy Rock Chalk brothers and sisters. Pomeroy's rating is for pseudo-intellectuals that can't measure what posters comment on everyday on this board like JB's "bad ball", Self's stubborness, toughness, emotion, and heart. I take everyone's view on this website more seriously than anything Mr. Pomeroy has to "calculate".
Sorry! Rant over. RCJH!
I totally agree. But I believe we made FAR more mistakes than the refs did that game. It was just an inexcusable effort and execution.
@brooksmd Eh, we can't put that loss on the refs. Maybe give up JUST 20 offensive rebounds instead of 23? As laughable as that is.
So does "bad ball" mean we will keep it close no matter what team we play? I remember you saying on a past post "it's not about winning the most battles, but about winning the last battle".
If that's the case, isn't that what cost us against KSU? We were bigger and stronger than the Wildcats. We were faster, more talented, and better shooters. But if it was a systematic choice to not play to our strengths, then what exactly did we take away from them?
And isn't that what makes big upsets in the tourney happen? Letting the little guy in it long enough to gain confidence and start playing out of their minds? Against UK, Duke, or another team that has the advantage, then maybe. But I don't see a 15 seed having the athleticism that we do.
Again, lets say we go with that because even if it makes lesser opponents have a greater chance of beating us, it gives us a better chance at beating superior teams. But isn't that we did against UK? Going inside, trying to create contact, but then getting blown out by 32. If it shrinks the strengths of other opponents, then I would hate to see what would happen if we play UK and try something different.
You know far more than I about the game. My points aren't trying to discredit yours, just asking questions for you to clarify.
@DoubleDD You are correct about VCU, but their defense pressured us and took us out of our offense, hints our terrible shooting.
And I'm not talking about the single year of glory for MU basketball. Haith didn't pressure like Anderson did. KU would either blow them away by 30 or fight us tooth and nail because their pressure caused havoc.
@KUinLA Yes my friend lol Now I hope we all see Selden is inadequate (and I am being nice because I like the guy).
@Crimsonorblue22 Preach it!
"HCBS's teams have never had problems beating up a team that plays a full court all out game. Never, well until this year."
Look at the VCU game and although we were known to beat down MU's "forty minutes of hell", there were times to where is gave us fits.
To beat the press, Selden can't play extended minutes. It's that simple.
@BeddieKU23 I doubt UNI will be a low enough seed for us to play them in the second round. But the VCU game is a definite possibility. Although I like our chances since we have played WVU twice and know what to expect with pressure.
It might have been a gift to go on such a severe shooting slump. We have proven we can win without it.
Interesting stat. We lose to WVU hitting 11 trey balls and shooting 50%, Ellis has a great game, and we lose. We lose Perry after a terrible first half from him, don't hit a 3, and win. I know their two seniors were out, but basketball is such a fickle game. No loyality to one scheme. Which is why I love it! Rock Chalk!
"Turgeon gets the same scrutiny too and he's done decently I've thought."
That's exactly why. Turgeon is definitely a solid coach. But for KU, Manning has the potential to be amazing. I would take Turgeon but I would be ready to let the dice roll with Manning.
Maybe we can put to rest that the game is passing Self by? Toughness transcends time. Being tough will always mask some of the flaws in a team. Has Self made mistakes this year? Of course. But hopefully we all know in the depth of our Rock Chalk Spirit that the game is exactly where Self wants it and he is the best coach for us.
@jayhawkbychoice Well those are pretty interesting numbers. It's hard to argue since we all know the defense isn't close. Can't say you're wrong there!
But about Teahan, no he was a mixture of Selden/Greene. Selden is just a better player. Faster, bigger, more of a play maker (not saying he is a good one, but Teahan had zero play making ability), better at defense, and the shooting is a push.
Greene is a more similar comparison, but we all know Greene could shoot Teahan out of the building. On top of him being fast and can grab a few rebounds.
Put Greene or Seldon on the NC runner up team and Teahan never sees the court. It's as simple as that.
But again, those numbers comparing the perimeter players make me think!
I agree he could come in like Mckay right away and contribute. But will he not plateau if that's all he's supposed to do? He could either be Mckay for 3 years averaging a solid 10 and 10 and maybe be a lottery or be a Thomas Robinson type AFTER 3 years and get his 16 and 12 and be a top five. But of course I have my crimson and blue goggles on.
@BeddieKU23 Thanks for the update! Makes me wonder why a player like Diallo would go play for a system like ISU. He doesn't have much touch. He will be forced to get his own touches through offensive rebounds.
@jayhawkbychoice You would take 12 and 13 perimeter players over this year? I would have to disagree my friend.
Maybe 12 because EJ was in his true position as a 2 guard. But lets not forget he was pretty mediocre the first half of the season. Mix that in the Taylor (who I believe is one of the most underated players at Kansas in the past 20 years), and the lock-down D of Travis. I get that. But who was the first wing off the bench? Teahan. The walk-on who couldn't dribble, play defense, run, or jump and was an average 3 point shooter. And the backup PG was freshman year Tharpe. Yikes. Fast forward to this year and replace Teahan for Greene and Tharpe for Graham. This is how I break it down.
Taylor > Mason. Mason is solid but Taylor was electrifying.
EJ > Selden. This is the only one that is not comparable. EJ is believe was not the shooter Selden is, but that's it. EJ was better in every other category.
Releford > Oubre. This one is closer than you might think. Releford is a better defender and spot up shooter but Oubre is a better play maker and rebounder.
Teahan < Greene. Not close. Greene is better is every category expect maybe team defense.
Tharpe < Graham. Again not close. Tharpe could barely get on the floor with an extremely shallow back court.
I would consider it a push considering the starters are not on another level and the bench was way behind this years team.
And as for the 13 season with EJ playing of position, and Bmac not being a play maker also, This years team in its totality of depth shouldn't really be up for discussion.
With everything going on right now, recruiting may be the least of our worries. But with all the talk about Zimmerman and Rabb, no one seems to have commented on recruit Cheick Diallo.
I love what he brings. He may not be a footer that we love, but he reminds of Acy for Baylor a few years ago.
Those with some kind of scoop, what do we think of him and where are the rumors have him landing?
The funny part about it was they were screaming for a foul because "Perry slapped his arm". They watched the replay and saw Ellis didn't touch him. So they freak out about a bump that has been happening the whole game.
@highelitemajor I am with @drgnslayr. Your post always challenge the way I think about KU. I may not agree with some aspects, but you have also changed the way I think about a lot of stuff too. Don't stop!
What makes me wonder about this team is just the lack of 3 point attempts. Even for a Self team, it is on the low end. And on this team nonetheless, that is inexcusable. I only have two scenarios to why this is the case.
1.) This team doesn't run the action and have the crisp passing necessary to get open looks from the 3. Past teams have shot more 3s with lesser shooters and a better post presence. This leads me to believe that we can't make defenses scramble when they double Perry, the ball sticks when passing, and we lack crispness when setting screens and coming off them.
2.) Self knows that you can't string together tough wins in the tourney without a post presence. If Self stopped trying to get the ball inside, does Perry progress like he has? I don't think so. I have to hold out hope that Self will run more outside action since Perry has finally learned to always be in attack mode.
Or their is a 3rd option. And it is Self is either ignorant to not run anything for shooters or cares more about his style than he does getting wins.
I would prefer not to assume that last but the longer the season progresses, the more it is looking like a reality.
@joeloveshawks The chop play is special because it has many plays inside of it depending how they defend.
08 NC- Mario cuts toward Sherron and with the hand-off gets a solid look.
2012 against MU at home- Taylor fakes for the hand-off then does a backdoor cut for the slam.
2013 against ISU at home- Bmac floats back behind the pick. Accidentally banks it in but got a look nonetheless.
2013 against ISU in Aimes- EJ cuts toward Tharpe for the hand-off. They hedge hard so EJ starts dribbling to the top of the key to scrape off another pick and gets a good look.
The chop play is great as a late game play because there are so many variations within it. If the wing reads the pick correctly, it is a pick-your-poison kind of play. Many teams run it now and it rarely looks the same twice.
Look at that D! Did anyone notice how far out MU always caught the ball? Definitely miss that.
I believe we are underestimating how desperate this UT team is. I said this before the KSU game and thought there was a good possibility KU would lose.
KSU was desperate to not make this season go to waste. The ONLY way to do that was the beat the Jayhawks. Texas NEEDS this win and a couple more to have hope in the making the round of 64. Expect UT to come out hungry and get at least 15 offensive boards.
Lets hope I'm wrong!
@drgnslayr I guess we simply differ on how to judge Mason.
Am I glad we have Mason? Of course! I think he will develop into a player that WILL lead us to a Final Four. But looking into the future tastes like moral victories and at KU, we don't accept those kind of victories.
I am probably at fault for putting him on a throne so early. And you're right, I need to look at Self more than I do Mason.
BUT right now, I am judging Mason as the starting PG of Kansas. Not as a 3 star Sophomore. And whether it be injury, being worn down, or just not mature enough, he is not the quality PG yet that we need. The reason for making this point is the fact that I haven't seen anyone else in their analysis of the season write anything negative about Mason other than "he had a bad game".
Greene talked about we don't have the right spacing. His exact words were "We're on top of each other". We have seen how this offense goes completely stiff for long periods of time. Is that on Self? You betcha. At the same time, how is not a reflection on Mason?
But I have always enjoyed your analysis and your take on the game!
@drgnslayr I agree with many of your points. And if this was the first time, then I would not say anything negative about Mason. But unfortunately it has been the norm rather than the exception the past 8 or 9 games. Against WVU, he played a fantastic game. But go back and rewatch how Mason played in other games. If you look beyond the box score (which isn't terrible), Mason just isn't a player a player that can take us to the Final Four yet.
He was a 3 star. But he is now the starting point the KU and needs to be judged like it.
3 Point Shooting- Average (Maybe)
Athleticism- Very Good
Handles- Excellent
Passing- Sub Par
Defense- Average (used to think he was excellent but when closely watched, not so much)
Basketball IQ/Decision Making- Sub Par
Finishing at the Rim- Average
Mid Range/Floaters- Sub par
Toughness- Very Good
Granted, we could go through the KU lineup and do the same thing. The result would also be underwhelming. But what Selden, Oubre, Alexander, Traylor, Lucas, and even Ellis lacks have all been well talked about. But for some reason, Mason has not been under the same scrutiny.
Maybe this is another topic and I have gotten away from the original point. If that's the case, then my apologies. But if you haven't noticed, I am usually an optimistic to a fault. But for the life of me, Sophomore Mason is not the player that can lead this team. Maybe Junior or Senior Mason. But not this year.
Read "We've Lost What's Made Us Successful" by @moonwalkmafia 2 months ago. It is almost a prophetic statement to what is going on now.
Time to stop letting Mason get a free pass. He took so many ill advised shots. With 20 seconds left, we ran the chop play, Greene was open for a second, Mason didn't give him the ball, and chucks up a three. He isn't playing lock down defense anymore, isn't finishing at the rim, and isn't hitting shots. The ball is sticking when it's in his hands as well.
We thought of PG woes were over this season. But now we realize that isn't the case. When Mason, Selden, and Traylor are your leaders, you can't win big games.
I hate just give negative an analysis without solutions to solve it, but for life of me, I can't figure out to get our of corner we painted ourselves in with Mason and Selden. And before anyone says anything, it isn't just "shoot more 3s" because the problems are deeper than that.
It's a problem that says this group can't get up for a game against a rival, who beat us last year, when the league is on the line. It's problem that lets us get pushed around almost every single game.
Graham has no problem getting in Fosters when and getting a T when we are up by 10 and at home but turns sloppy when the chips are down. That is a microcosm of the overall status of this team.
Do we play Svi and have Ellis shoot 25 times a game? I don't know. Anyone to give some helpful insight on how to fix the glaring problems?
KU is in a scary position. Since the Wildcats will probably not make the tourney, this is their Superbowl. The fans will be going crazy, the players looking for something to hang their hat on, and Weber to save his job. When your incentives for showing up to all the other games is getting better seating for the KU game (The students who have shown up to the most previous games get the best seats for the KU) and when their hyped up T.O. chant is "F*ck KU!" no matter who they are playing, it is easy to see why their whole reason for basketball program existing is to play us.
We have somewhat slumping the past few games. If we aren't ready to jump out early and actually step on the throat, this will be a game that makes the rest of my hair go grey.
With all that being said, I believe we pull it out in an ugly one. 58-55.
We all see the holes in this team and I believe we see the positives. Looking to the future and figuring out what we need to improve is fair and reasonable. But if you told me in November that this team would we 22-5 and a one game lead in the conference with 4 games left, I would venture to say that most of us would take it in a heartbeat. @icthawkfan316 got it right. Lets enjoy the win and how this season has played out so far!
@Crimsonorblue22 He will defintely be a capable shooter in a couple years. But for right now, I liked Mason only had to play 32 minutes in a close game.
I am not getting excited about Graham's shooting. It is the epitome of "fools gold". It was his drives and his passes that got me giddy. He said he was playing "soft" and the next game he fixed. That is refreshing to see a player back up is comments.
"Traylor's 7.4 defensive rebounding rate in Big 12 is 55th out of 62 qualified players in the conference, and he's wedged on that leaderboard between Javan Felix, Jordan Woodard and Phil Forte"
Ouch!!!
I think we must face the facts about Selden. He doesn't have the explosion we thought he would. You can't blame us with his physical appearance but he isn't super quick and can't explode in the lane to finish above the rim.
BUT I still take Selden over Svi this year. Selden may not be a lock down defender, but when compared to Svi, it isn't close. He fights over screens better, can't get bullied around, and is just a tougher player. And whether we agree on Self's system this year, we know Selden knows it better and is in the right position more often than not.
The one thing that has left we wanting from Selden is where is passing went. Anyone remember his game against Duke is freshman year? Boy he did it all. Rebounded, slick passes, and chose his spots when to score.
The refs missed the shot clock and the travel that effected the end result. But WHAT IF we had only given up 20 offensive boards? We didn't get manhandled. We got thrown around like a red-headed step child. That brings me more pain than any missed call. I cannot put myself through anymore when dealing with this game. We are still one game ahead with an easier schedule than ISU. On to TCU!!!
Disclaimer: Self makes mistakes. I believe he is making some mistakes with this team.
BUT lets not go crazy and think a Final Four or National Championship can't be accomplished with Self's High-Low game. We have a tendency to be spoiled and fickle as fans. Before UK started the season, a lot of people laughed at coach Cal when he said he was going to platoon. Then after he had success 3 games into the season, we were calling for Self to do the same thing.
When he wasn't getting the talent of OADs, we thought Self lost his recruiting touch. But when he got them, we hated the constant turnover and the lack of toughness to our team. And the list goes on and on.
Lets not forget, before Embiid's injury, we were set to make another final four run. The year before, we GAVE the game away to Michigan (which made it to the national championship). The year before that, we lost in the NC. And the year before that, VCU broke our hearts in the elite eight.
And now here we are. Is Self to blame for some of it? Of course. Is the game passing by Self? Most definitely not. With the right players, Self's traditional offense is still very effective. Again, this year he has not adapted like he should have. But Self is still the right coach for us.
I have sworn off talking about UK awhile ago, and I have kept true to my promise. Lets keep in mind that we don't need to be UK. We are freaking Kansas, a true blue blood, and a constant national powerhouse. When we constantly compare us to them, we exude a little-brother syndrome and we are too good for that!
Come of my KU brothers and sisters. Let us not be so fickle and keep in the mind the past 5 years and not get overwhelmed to point of questioning everything Self has accomplished AND will continue to accomplish
I could have sworn #32 was Andrew White...
I don't have a good feeling about this game.
They will be geeked in the beginning. The fans will go crazy when they force 10 turnovers within the first 15 minutes. If we can keep it within 10 at halftime, I predict we will pull out the victory in a late comeback and win 69-65.
My fear is with Mason showing signs of wear and tear. Ten games ago, I would say when nothing else is falling, Mason will take over, drive the lane, and create options for this team. BUT he doesn't have the same explosiveness and last game he showed sign of freshman year Frank. He got in the middle of the zone and forced up a couple shots instead of dishing to the open man on the perimeter. If we can't pull together a mini-run at the end of the first half, then we might be in for a long night. Doomsday prediction 73-58 WVU.
Although, imagining Robinson in a Kansas jersey again does get me hot and bothered in inappropriate ways...
I am buying the argument of wanting to give our current players more reps. Someone like TRob would hurt Cliff and Taylor would hurt Graham. What about bringing someone on board who can instill an attitude and a good mentor? Someone like Black who can mentor the players, bring a winning mentality, and still get some production without being dominating the possessions. Withey? Collins? Young? Selby? (obvious joke on the last one). All they need is to enroll in a 3 hour course towards a master degree.
@truehawk93 Where did bounce go? He was actually finishing on oops. I have yet to see him rise up and slam anything. Is he battling some knee injury?
Even though I agree with most people about Lucas not having the same skill package, and being a couple inches shorter, the argument against Lucas is that he is a red-shirt sophomore and has been in the program for 3 years. But didn't Withey transfer? He had to red-shirt a year also. Wouldn't that make them in the same position?
@Crimsonorblue22 He might know quite a bit but he doesn't know nearly as much as he thinks he does. There is a reason why is radio show are way down in numbers. Everyone else is sick of him too!
"That was one of the worst flops from Selden. And I've seen some pretty bad ones from him"
Say it ain't so do Joe!
@globaljaybird Considering someones greatness doesn't mean it's taking away from anyone else. I agree when it comes to developing bigs, that Manning is superior. Again, saying Jordan was better than Bird doesn't take away from what Bird accomplished.
I would like to think that Norm could have gotten a head coaching gig SOMEWHERE. But he prefers it here and the right offer hasn't come yet.
"What happens in the madness of March makes not a great coach. The best coaches do it in the regular season, during offseason workouts, in team meetings and in preparation. What happens on the court sometimes in March is often a coin-flip." YES.