Why do you think his numbers are average and he is inconsistent? His numbers are better than those of Ron Baker and Fred VanVleet in their final year at WSU and both are playing in the NBA.
JayHawkFanToo
13427 posts
I get what you are saying but it certainly does not look like a tax issue to me. All Adidas has to say is that the money was a gift and the first $14,000 would excempt from taxes and the amount over that would be taxable. Considering that many of the recipients have low incomes, the difference might not be enought to be taxed or the tax would be at the lowest rate; in other words, the tax would be negligible to insignificant since it is not like one recipient got millions but a number of them got smaller amounts instead. One drug bust alone would represent orders of magnitude more money. I just can’t imagine the FBI getting involved for this little money, this is something that the IRS would pursue. BTW, the indictment does not mention tax evation at all.
To me, there is a bigger agenda that we still don’t know and tax evasion is not it. I would be curious to see what part of the argument above you think is incorrect.
Considering how well he did at WSU, yes. He is a very good game manager with high basketball IQ that many who know him well say he is like a coach on the court. He is not athletic but he has decent size and can shoot from outside.
Shamet hired an agent so there is no going back for him. He is projected to be a late first round so he has no reason to go back, even if he could. FWIW, he worked out for the Warriors.
The particular story you cited was discussed in another forum I belong that deals with 3-d printing. The write up can lead one to believe that a 3-d printer can be programmed and the finished shoe produced; this not even close to reality. Some of the individual parts of a shoe can be created using a 3-d printer but the shoe needs to be assembled separately since by and large 3-d printers are restricted to one type of filament/material. Also, if you have ever used a 3-d printer you know they are extremely slow and not (at this time) suited for mass production where injection techniques are much faster and cheaper. I print custom parts for equipment I use and it takes hours to print even simple parts. I understand that big manufacturers would have bigger and faster 3-d printers but no way they cannot compete with other manufacturing technology; not at this time.
I can see some portion of the shoe being fabricated for a custom, one of a kind shoe, where the foot can be scanned and a custom insole fabricated (a gel insole will do the same thing) but producing the entire shoe in one pass is not possible with the current technology. I have seen a company that built the body of a small panel van with parts made with 3-d printers but the cost was huge and the design impractical.
Who would you say is the pre-season #1 team? Duke and UK will have talented but very inexperienced teams, UNC lost key players and it will take time to see how the replacements work and Villanova is still a question mark depending on who returns.
KU is losing 4 starters but is replacing them with 3 5-star equivalent experienced transfers, 3 McDonald’s All-Americans and a couple of others with good potential in addition to quality returning players, Doke (???), Silvio, Mitch, Garret and Cunliffe, that are ready to start contributing. Looks like a very solid lineup that anyone would have in the conversation for top team.
The Big 12 will be very good again next season. KU, KSU, WVU, ISU, Texas, Texas Rech., and TCU are all top 20 or potential top 20 teams. OU will drop dramatically and will be at the bottom of the conference; looks like Kruger has run out of magic. Critical year for Smart, he has now a team he fully recruited with talent and experience; a finish in the bottom half and his seat become extremely hot...fireable hot actually.
Spot on. I was getting ready to write a post with the tobacco analogy when I saw your post. Once the real long term effects of tobacco were made public, the liability went up exponentially. In the early 70s you could get a pack of cigarettes for 30 cents and a carton (10 pack) of cigarettes for about $2 and now a pack, not a carton in Kansas goes for about $7 and $14 in New York mostly because of the liability and cost to the government to deal with the consequences.
Now that the long term effects of football are being exposed the liability will go through the roof and most programs will end up shutting down. Frankly, I don’t see football as we know it to be around in 10-20 years.
jaybate 1.0 said:
wissox said:
Yikes, we're 9-22 all time against UK.
That's because KU cheats more than UK.
Don't you have that backwards?
Is that an official NCAA document or just a generic set of rules about amateurism? If it is, can you please point out the relevant section or sections?
I remember reading that if the money was not paid to the athlete but to a guardian or agent without the athlete being aware then the case becomes a lot more complicated and the athlete would have good case to sue the NCAA. Remember his guardian was allegedly paid to steer Silvio to Maryland and Silvio wanted to go to KU without any inducement. The case would be against whoever paid the guardian and the guardian himself and Silvio should not be penalized for something it was done without his knowledge and against his specific wishes.
Much like patents, these type of regulations are not worth the paper they are written until a court affirms them or strikes them down. TTBOMK, this has not been tested in court. This all I have.
Like any other business, everybody in the coaching business knows who the good and bad actors are and there is really not much that can be done other than to try to keep your own program clean.
I would suspect that most coaches insulate themselves from this type of knowledge about their own programs so they can have future plausible deniability.
I would venture to say that Coach Self is generally aware of what goes one but stays out of the details. I would also bet that he did not ask, approve or knew contemporaneously of any of these alleged payments just because of the potential damage to his legacy and "officially" learned about the actual payments at the same time we did.
Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being made. - Otto von Bismarck
I think we can safely throw college sports recruiting in the same category.
UK will have a very talented but also very young and inexperienced team. When KU beats UK it will get it that much closer to the top in all time wins and will make it what? 4 wins in a row over UK?
Moving from the doom and gloom to better news. Josh Jackson was named NBA all-rookie second team and Embiid was named NBA all-defensive second team.
Marcus Morris is having a good playoff stretch and hopefully the Celtics beat the Cavaliers (remember LeBron has not won a title without a former Jayhawk in his team) and, if my wish to have Houston beat the Warriors comes trough, we will have two former Jayhawks, Morris and Black in the finals and one Jayhawk will have a title. :smile:
Way to go Jayhawks.
I wrote before that the NCAA will likely declare a new beginning, grant a general amnesty for all past infractions and release a new set of stronger and more enforceable rules based on the recommendations of the Rice headed committee and every thing will be hunky dory. :smile:
I don't read much into it. The part of the talk that was reported in the story dealt primarily with the new players joining the team...and Garret. Also, when looking at POY candidates it is not difficult to see where Doke and Dedrick would be the logical candidates. Maybe by mid-season Silvio will be part of that talk but initially he will be playing behind Doke and Dedrick.
I have not read anything about Silvio getting an agent or leaving and at this time his only options other than KU are the G League and overseas. The NCAA will likely wait to see what happens with the FBI investigation since anything it does would be affect that case and, knowing how our system works and based on the apparent misbehavior by FBI agents, that case might take a long time before it sees a court room...if it gets that far.
Based on the above, I would say that Silvio will be playing for KU next season or worst case, he will do like Kanter and stay at KU but not play.
@justanotherfan @Crimsonorblue22
The Frietzel name is well known in business circles in Lawrence and the reputation is questionable to put it mildly.
The contract change is very hard to understand and even harder to justify and definitely did not favor KU. I suspect someone built a nice retirement fund as a result of that change.
Bagley is no slouch. He was ACC player and Rookie of the year and led the conference in scoring, rebounding and shooting percentage and broke a number of team and conference records and was consensus first team All American and Peter Newell big man of the year and a true 6’- 11” forward...and yet Svi played him well and kept him below his averages and had a great and critical rebound over him towards the end of the game that was the difference maker.
What I am saying is...don’t underestimate Svi’s defensive skills, he is smart and fundamentally solid with a good basketball IQ and above average shooting skill and will do well in the League. He was at the combine the previous year so his measurements are not a surprise and there was a fair amount of interest. He is a much better player now and likely will be drafted.
Thanks. It would be difficult for the FBI to argue about the temptation of money when its own agents fell for it.
Did you not get the memo? Nobody plays defense in the NBA...:smirk:
But seriously, Svi played great defense on Bagley who will likely be a top 3 draft pick.
Interesting. Do you have a link?
Crimsonorblue22 said:
@JayHawkFanToo in my opinion, you are the most opinionated poster.🤐
!0_1527101808230_545FA676-F98D-451E-B5BB-4B06C43549A5.jpeg ↗
Ouch...but seriously, aren’t we all opinionated? Isn’t this what a forum is all about, expressing our opinions? If you don’t agree with what I write you can always state your own opinion, right? Maybe you will convince me to see it your way.
I agree. Teams, both college and NBA, routinely list player height rounded to the nearest inch and with shoes since it represents what you see on the court, i.e. players wearing shoes.
If you look at the height of the KU players as measured with shoes at the combine, they are just about the same as those listed on the KU basketball website. I am not sure where these so called discrepancies come from.
Did you catch Alan Dershowitz debating Adam Abrams on the Stephanopolous ABC show last Sunday?
Dershowitz, not a Trump fan, schools Abrams on the Special Counsel role and says something along the lines of.. .you cannot target people and try to find crimes. I don't want to bring politics to this discussion and I mentioned this video only to point out the eerie similarities of both cases and how the points Dershowitz makes could also apply to the FBI case against Adidas. Here are more comments ↗ by Dershowitzs on the special counsel that could also be made about the current FBI case. As I noted in another post, the special counsel did indict the proverbial ham sandwich when it indicted an company that did not exist at the alleged time of the crime...again, some similarity with the current indictment.
Again, this i not meant to be a political post but one to show the similarities between two misguided (in my opinion) investigations.
This link ↗ posted earlier by @BShark tells the story behind the firing of Zenger or at least one version of it. It appears donors were tired by the lack of progress primarily with the football program which as we all know has become an embarrassment for KU, setting all kinds of records, most of them negative. I mentioned a few days ago some of the other programs that were also under performing but football is by far the main one. The one thing that Zenger appeared to do relatively well was fundraising and once he lost the big donors it was time for him to go and surely enough he was gone. I know and talk to a large number of KU alumni in the KC Metro area and I can't think of one that supported him
Last season we all had high hopes for the team some even dared to dream of a bowl bet and after the first game the season went to hell and it was huge disappointment. The upcoming season will start with no hopes and the general expectation that barring a miracle, Beaty will be pretty much gone. No one and I mean NO ONE wanted Zenger to pick yet another football head coach.
Firing Zenger at this time and creating a search committee sends a message that KU is looking not only for an AD but in all likelihood a football HC as well and places potential candidates on notice.
A secondary and more subtle message could also be that KU is cleaning house in advance of any potential negative findings resulting from the ongoing investigations. A proactive approach sends a positive message and helps in this type of situations.
I do get what you are saying but the truth is we don’t know if the receiving parties are hiding the income from the government. Obviously they appear to be hiding it from the schools and that is a NCAA violation and if the schools want redress, Civil Court is the proper forum. Now, if they are hiding the income from the government then it should be the IRS that investigates, at least in the amounts quoted. I would prefer the FBI used its resources to follow leads on potential school shooters, something they failed to do and students got killed, instead of pursuing small time tax evaders...now, that is a real tragedy.
Just my opinion.
A couple off point that I want to bring to your attention. First, we have to differentiate between what breaks the law and what breaks a NCAA rule and doing something that breaks an NCAA rule does not necessarily breaks the law. For example, buying a meal for a student athlete might violate NCAA rules but by no means breaks any laws. Adidas or Nike can go to a high school and say we are going to select a few students and will give them each $10K to wear Adidas or Nike gear and there is no law being broken; of course those students would not be eligible to play college sports but no laws are broken. I guess we can agree on this.
Now comes the FBI and says these student are hiding these payments to play college when they would otherwise be ineligible and hence they are conspiring to defraud schools and we will prosecute to enforce basically NCAA rules even when the alleged victims do not consider themselves victims at all. Now, if Adidas is using illegally obtained money and using college kids to basically launder the money I can see where they could get involved. However, in this case Adidas is using money legally gained as a result of the company’s operations. Seems to me like a like a stretch to use the FBI to investigate this case.
I brought the Al Capone name myself but only to indicate that large scale tax evasion can be used to convict someone but we are talking apples and oranges. Lots of people were being killed as a result of Al Capone’s operation and the government was unable to tie any of them to Capone and as a last ditch they used the tax evasion charge based on the illegal acquisition of said money and the corresponding tax evasion by one individual and the illegal money and tax evaded were orders of magnitude greater than what we are talking on the current indictment and the money was not illegally obtained by Adidas, the tax evasion, if any, is done in a tiny scale by lots of unrelated individuals rather than the corporation and people are not being killed on a daily basis...at least not in relation to the alleged payments.
In my opinion, and I don’t believe I am alone, this was a case brought up by an overzealous, publicity seeking prosecutor and the case will likely end with a whimper rather than a bag. It also appears there is an agenda behind the indictment. Based on the recent actions by the FBI, nothing would surprise me any more.
Looks like we will have to wait some more to know all the details.
...and that is why hearsay is not admissible in any court because it is unproven, highly prejudicial and most likely untrue. If there was any evidence and I mean ANY evidence, someone in the MSM would have been all over it.
Think about it. The comments in this thread appear on Google, someone will google it, see your comment and post as fact that Coach Self is corrupt based on your comment as a KU fan in a KU basketball forum. Threads like this is what fuels all the hearsay and innuendo that we see.
You need to reread my post. I did not say either Cal or Coach K are corrupt. What I said is that based on the prospects they have gotten recently it would be “LESS” of a stretch to infer misbehavior from them...when compared to Coach Self...right?
You are missing the main element of the issue. The money was given to his guardian, not to him, to have him go to Maryland. He did not want to go to Maryland and came to KU instead. This would appear to eliminate any type of involvement or conspiracy on Silvio’s part. I believe this is the same thing that happened with Cam Newton who did not miss a single game. I understand that loophole has been closed in football but I am not sure it has been in closed in basketball. The entire issue was handled without any KU involvement and this is apparently why KU was mentioned as a “victim” in the indictment and not as perpetrator of the alleged crime.
There is a week off after the West Virginia game (6th game) and, if KU has won less than 2 games, Beaty will be gone and KU will start the search way ahead of the rest dangling a lot of money to get a good coach with the messages that KU is committed to having a winning football program. There is really not a good reason why KU cannot have a competitive football program.
BShark said:
That said I've laid out some things in the past. Is it really worth rehashing? It doesn't change anything. There is a reason Self has a reputation as dirty in coaching and recruiting circles.
Can you please cite reliable sources that indicate that Coach Self has a reputation as dirty in coaching and recruiting circles? Everything I have heard or read about him is the exact opposite.
When you consider the players Kentucky and Duke have gotten recently it would be considerably less of a stretch to think that they are dirty or at least dirtier than Coach Self, wouldn’t you agree? Do you have any factual information from ANY source, Internet or otherwise, that even alleges wrong doing by Coach Self? The only negative I have about Coach Self is his handling of the Giddens deal, if what was reported on Beyond the Phog is to be believed.
To infer from an indictment in which Coach Self is not even named and KU is listed as a victim that Coach Self is dirty is one hell of a stretch any way you look, regardless of what school the accuser comes from.
Whoa...chill dude. Nowhere in my post I indicated you were wrong or naive and there was nothing disrespectful either.
Agreeing with someone else does not imply disrespect or even that either is right or wrong, we are all expressing our opinions here and when presented as such that is exactly what they are...opinions and not facts and this is after all why we are here, right?
Now, in the big scheme of things the amount we are discussing here are extremely small, not even noise, and not something that would warrant FBI involvement. IRS? Heck yes, FBI? No...in my opinion of course. I would personally prefer the FBI concentrates in things like following up on leads on potential school shooters instead of chasing after small time tax evaders which the IRS is more than eager and capable to do.
As far as the indictment, it does not mean much and as the expression goes, the government can indict a ham sandwich. The most sensational current investigation is that being conducted by a Special Prosecutor Paul Mueller who apparently brought an indictment against several Russian firms with the apparent motive of creating publicity and to extend and expand his investigation even when he did not have the information necessary to proceed and was caught with his pants down when the indicted firms requested a speedy trial and asked for discovery. ↗ it also appears that they indicted the proverbial “ham sandwich” ↗ since one of the indicted firms did not even exist as a legal entity in the alleged period. Don’t you see some parallels with the FBI indictment?
As far as shoe companies paying AAU team, it is perfectly legal and does not even violate NCAA rules and I don’t see why they could not do this. Every business and I mean EVERY business with a product to sell has to advertise it, how else would you sell it? Businesses routinely hire people who are in a position to influence and sway buyers, celebrities are hired to endorse products because the exposure they have; remember former Kansas Senator Bob Dole advertising medication for erectile dysfunction? What better way to advertise your athletic gear than having AAU teams with future stars wearing your product?
There is nothing illegal with a shoe company paying anyone including HS athletes to endorse its product...granted, it will likely make that athlete ineligible to compete in amateur sports like NCAA/college but it does not make it illegal. Now, if that income is not declared and the Government does not get its cut, then this is where the IRS comes in, not the FBI.
Having said that, don’t you think that this investigation is highly focused on Adidas, the German company, and not Nike or Under Armour? So far, the main casualty has been Pitino, who is now suing Louisville, an Adidas program; the other assistants that got in trouble was due to steering players to agents and not related to a shoe company per se. Don’t you wander why nothing has happened with Sean Miller at Arizona, a Nike program, who they allegedly had on tape discussing payments? He still has his position and nothing else has been mentioned. How about Under Armour? Weren’t they the ones that paid De Sousa’s guardian in the first place? I believe @HighEliteMajor mentioned a while back that the ultimate target appeared to be Coach Self himself; I am starting to think he was right.
The NCAA cleared De Sousa before he played a single game at KU and it has been a while since the FBI indictment came out and the NCAA has had plenty of time to review his situation and determine if there was a violation; the fact that NCAA has not acted bides well for De Sousa. I would think that KU has done its due diligence and if there was an issue that could prevent him from coming back he would have been advised to look at other opportunities overseas or potentially the G League since he is not eligible for the Draft and nothing like this ha happened, as far as we know.
I believe DeSousa will be back and worse case he is suspended for a few games like Diallo was.
As far as Doke, his strengths and weaknesses have been in display at the combine. Solid under the basket with great size and athleticism but no offensive game outside 5 feet from the basket, poor FT form and underdeveloped basketball IQ, lack of positional awareness and below average rebounding for his size; most can be corrected or improved with one additional year of college. Two things work against him, one his current skills do not translate well to the modern/current NBA style of play and two, at the combine he has to heavily rely on other players to get him the ball on offense, something that is not happening since the other players are trying to impress themselves and have little interest in helping someone else.
Best possible outcome for Doke appears to be a two way contract that send him to the G League with a chance to move up to the top level on an as needed basis. Absent that, I believe he comes back to KU.
Crimsonorblue22 said:
Going to be a lot of happy Jayhawks!
Me, me, me...it took a while but finally happened. :smile:
...but...nothing on the Adidas or De Sousa headlines indicates or even hints of any involvement by Coach Self. To take those headlines and from there determine Coach Self is dirty is a ridiculous stretch.
I get that lots of people talk about the Big 12 being in trouble but the reality is that the conference is in very solid financial shape and revenues have increased every year and by and large the members seem to be satisfied with the current status quo and the business model seems to be working just fine.
In this one I believe @HighEliteMajor has it correct, the tax money that might have not been paid is way too small to get the FBI involved. The IRS has plenty of agents that could have investigated; there has to be more to the story than we know.
Fake news? other board’s posters make preposterous and unfounded allegation that repeated enough make people wonder if they are indeed true. At the UK boards the call him Dollar Bill even when there has never been an allegation of wrong doing. Some people have trouble believing that KU can win as much as it does without breaking the rules and the easier explanation is that it and by extension Coach Self cheat. I would have been interested to know why your guy thought Coach Self was corrup; I would not have been surprised to hear something along the lines... I saw it on the Internet so it must be true...
I have no doubt that coaches are generally aware of perhaps not all but some of what goes on behind closed doors and the question is whether a coach chooses to actively participate or just stay out of it. I saw where holding Alexander and particularly Preston seriously affected KU’s chances and yet Coach Self chose not to take the risk which, IMHO, means he is not a win at all costs type of person but one that wants to do it by the book and following the rules.
I am not aware of anything that would make me even remotely suspect that Coach Self is not as clean as they come.
Looks like the Big 12 got the $10M from ESPN for doing absolutely nothing ↗ which is exactly what it planned to do in the first place and it still has Fox Sports as a backup in case it changes its mind since at the rate ESPN is losing customers it might be out of business in the not too distant future.🤗
The article you cited is very poorly written and by someone with little understanding of how contracts work in the real world. The Big 12 and the networks have a valid and binding contract and the networks can scream all they want but does not change the fact that if the conference expands they will have to pay more money as clearly spelled out in the contract. If they wanted to pay less based on who joined the conference they should have including that wording in the original but they did not; they had competent legal counsel and just because they miss calculated revenue is not a reason to contest the contract. No question the conference would prevail in court.
The reports of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain.
The reports of the potential death of the Big 12 are grossly exagerated and self-serving by the MSM that favors the coastal programs and could not care less about what they call fly over country. The conference is in excellent financial shape ↗ and all the gloom and doom reports about its imminent demise are indeed greatly exaggerated. The conference has been the best in basketball for the last few years and just about evey football program not named KU is doing well to very well.
Here is some information ↗ on KU targets...
Doke has responded well to coaching in other areas, sounds like it could be more mental.
That is really a no brainer. Given the choice of going back to college to a very structured system and still have to attend classes or make even the minimum NBA salary for a player with no experience which is now about $600K which one would you take?
I have said it before and I will say it again, 10 is the best number for a conference, 9 football games and 18 basketball games are the optimal numbers. The Conference is doing very well financially and I just don't see much of a movement to add teams. The Conference is now contemplating having a series with the Big East in basketball, similar with what it has now withe the SEC; I think it would be really good for both conferences.
Adding the Arizona schools would place the conference in 3 time zones and would increase travel costs quite a bit. Frankly, I just don't see the conference doing this or the Arizona schools wanting to leave the PAC12.
You are talking about apples and oranges. What they do now or where they play has nothing to do with where they were in their development while at KU. Look at POY Adam Morrison, he did not last long in the NBA or POY Tyler Hansbrough who is now playing in China or POY Jimmer Fredette that is also playing in China, likewise, there are many players that were not necessarily great in college and were drafted based on potential and did well in the NBA.
No question that Diallo had a higher upside but potential and usable skills are not the same thing. If you consider a scale where the floor is 0 and the top ceiling is 10, most players in the NBA have developed to somewhere between 8-10. At KU Diallo had a floor of 2 or 3 and a realistic ceiling of 7 and most of the time he played somewhere between 3 and 4. Lucas on the other hand had a floor of 5 and a ceiling of 7 or 8 and most of the time he played close to his ceiling, say 7...guess who most coaches are going to play. Lucas maximized his potential while Diallo's was just that, potential with occasional burst of good play. Coach Self has an obligation to the the program and to the team to play the lineup that will produce the best outcome and Lucas and not Diallo provided that.Thinking that with more playing time Diallo would have been that much better of a player is just wishful thinking. In the learning scale Embiid was freak savant of a learner with incredible natural skill, Josh Jackson a quick learner, Doke and average learner, Alexander a slow learner and Diallo a very slow learner.
Even when he has now been practicing 24/7 for 2 years, Diallo still is playing scrub minutes with trips to the G League. I have the NBA channel and I make it a point to try watching games with former KU players. Diallo plays mostly to give the starters a quick couple of minutes rest, particularly after Boogie was done for the season, and at the end of games when the outcome has been decided.
I guess we just agree to disagree.
I disagree. Diallo's issues and his late start placed him way behind the curve with the KU system in part due to the late start and in part due to his low basketball IQ due to his previous limited exposure to the sport and, while extremely physically gifted, proved to be a slow learner. At KU he was more of a liability than an asset and the players themselves chose Lucas over him...this is pretty telling.
In his second year in the League he still has not secured a spot in the rotation or roster because of his highly inconsistent play and he either plays during garbage time or has lots of DNP- Coach decision. Even this season he spent time in the G League learning the game. Obviously the Pelicans hope he will eventually develop but at this time he looks like the prototype journeyman bench warmer.