Obviously not the cleanest game, but that wasn't what was needed to be seen tonight, but the biggest thing was KU's energy and effort levels were high throughout the game. At this point, this team will go wherever Hunter carries them to.
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We'll find out tonight if the OSU game was a one off or this team turning the corner to make a run.
I just want to see them come out and play with energy tonight.
@benshawks08 said in Biggest game of the year thread:
Thatās still 9:00 mountain time? What the hell? Iād get it if it was full west coast pacific time because a game starting at 8 isnāt unheard of but 9 seems late add in the central time of 10:00 and it just seems silly.
The old Pac 12 After Dark time slot.
@kjayhawks said in Biggest game of the year thread:
Is Shak hurt or what?
Mentioned a few games back, he's dealing with a foot injury. That's why he had been playing reduced minutes recently, nothing to do with being in Self's doghouse.
We saw what a fully healthy Shak could do on defense and how much that energized the team.
Today was encouraging. Whether it was a one off or something more remains TBD. We didn't look like this against Colorado 11 days ago though and Colorado is a much worse team than OSU.
I mentioned it in during the game, but this team will go as far as Hunter carries them. When he's active and engaged like today, everyone else feeds off that energy. When he plays half-assed, pretty much everyone else plays half-assed as well.
Can Hunter have a Remy-like run to end his KU career and change his KU legacy? It was about this time 3 years ago that we were wondering if Remy was even going to play for KU again, but that's rarely brought up because of his run to end the season. That doesn't necessarily mean Hunter has to win a title, but making a run in the B12 Tournament, making it past the first weekend of the NCAA Tournament would do a lot to change Hunter's long term legacy here.
This team goes as Hunter goes. When he's playing motivated, KU is damn near unstoppable.
Already in the bonus, nice!
The aggression on offenses is nice to see today.
I do want Coit back next year. He's a great bench piece for a program like Kansas with his shooting.
@benshawks08 said in Biggest game of the year thread:
@patoh3 if he had real scorers around him someone would have been there to throw that down.
Griffen went up intending to shoot it and changed his mind last second. That was 100% on Rylen.
Today, I just want to see them play loose and free.
@rockchalkjayhawk said in Biggest game of the year thread:
No time to eff around. gotta come close to winning out the rest of the way to guarantee we're dancing.
KU doesn't need to win out to make the tournament. Just win today and the first B12 Tournament game and KU's in. This will likely be the first time since the 2000 though that KU isn't a top 4 seed in the NCAA Tournament which might be an unbreakable record.
Those GM's don't handle external scouting. They manage the NIL deals for players already within the program.
I was reading something from Matt Tait that one of the issues in the transfer portal is how fast things can move and coaching staffs don't always have the time they would like to vet for fit with the team.
The other thing that really stood out to me in Matt's article was how much the portal has changed the culture of KU. Transfers have pretty much always been a part of the rotation from Self (Rodrick Stewart, Jeff Withey, Mario Little, Kevin Young, Tarik Black, Dedric Lawson, etc.), but there was always enough leadership from the established players brought up in the KU system and culture from big time players to the homegrown talent to show the transfers the KU way and hold them accountable when they weren't meeting expectations. KU doesn't have that this year as Dejuan and KJ aren't the most vocal players and not suited for leadership roles and it's allowed non-KU culture to take hold this year leading to a lot of the issues.
Yes, there are Zach Clemence, Elmarko Jackson, and Jamari McDowell, but they have minimal influence at this point because of their injury and redshirt status within the team.
Matt said the hope is next year with those three back, with at least Elmarko expected to have a prominent role, along with Passmore and Tiller that a lot of culture issues will resolve themselves as KU should have several players in the rotation and leadership roles that haven't been "tainted" by other programs.
Tied for 3rd worst loss in program history.
@wissox said in Tonight's game:
@bskeet First time maybe was the 2018 ff against Villanova. I mean that was a historically great Nova team, but it looked like a lot of these losses, them just making 3 after 3, bill calling TO, then more of the same.
That loss wasn't like these. That Villanova team was an all time great team and got red hot and shot above their normal %. KU wasn't great that night, but they were nowhere like this.
That didn't look like a charge
That wasn't a flagrant
@SlimShaddy54 said in Tonight's game:
Serious question , wonder how many wins we get to end the Season-- - Houston -- loss -- Texas Tech -- loss - -Idunno
2, Saturday to OSU and 1 in the Big 12 Tournament.
KU's worst loss of all time was a 40 point loss to Nebraska, in 1900.
Get KJ out there for Hunter and run that line up the rest of the game.
AJ Storr, 1 rebound, 4 turnovers tonight.
@TYOHawk said in Tonight's game:
@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Tonight's game:
@TYOHawk said in Tonight's game:
Itās not the money. Theyāre just not that good. Imagine if we built a team around Naadir Tharpe and Darnell Jacksonā¦thatās essentially what Coach has done the last two years.
Don't insult Darnell Jackson like that. He was actually drafted and spent 3 years in the NBA. I'd take him in a heart beat right now.
Fair point lol. Maybe Jamari Traylor and itās nothing personal against him
I'd take Traylor too at this point to because effort was never an issue with him and he was willing to do the dirty work Dickinson refuses to do.
@TYOHawk said in Tonight's game:
Itās not the money. Theyāre just not that good. Imagine if we built a team around Naadir Tharpe and Darnell Jacksonā¦thatās essentially what Coach has done the last two years.
Don't insult Darnell Jackson like that. He was actually drafted and spent 3 years in the NBA. I'd take him in a heart beat right now.
Hunter's scared of contact. Easy charge to take and he ole'd out of the way.
AJ Storr is too damn lazy to even put a hand up to contest someone shooting a 3 in his face.
@DanR said in Tonight's game:
I'm just blown away by the total ineptness on D. Like 10 wide open threes from the corner. How are you going to fix that with a halftime speech. Should have been coached from day 1.
It's not being fixed with a speech. This team is beyond speeches. It's at the point where certain players have to decide if they give a shit or not. Nobody on the roster has enough fire to hold others accountable for phoning it it.
@drgnslayr said in Ute came to the right place:
So they get paid more than don't perform? So you are saying our problems are solved by cutting off NIL money?
Does KJ and Juan make huge NIL money?
Your view of these guys isn't positive at all. They came here to scam us, huh?
I don't buy that for a second.
KU's total NIL budget last season was about $4 million. It's a similar amount this year. So no, Dejuan and KJ are not making anywhere close to what Hunter Dickinson and AJ Storr are making in NIL money who are taking up well over half of KU's NIL budget if their NIL deal numbers are accurate. Dickinson and Storr are taking up the largest chunk of KU's NIL budget. Which two players have been criticized the most this year for not putting forth the necessary effort at times? Storr and Dickinson. Those two do not have an NBA future and making more money in NIL deals at Kansas than they would over in Europe playing pro ball.
Those two got their bag, complacency set in once they secured their bags, and we're seeing that fruits of two high dollar NIL players without NBA futures.
So again, please tell me another school that has two players making what Dickinson and Storr are making in NIL that do not have NBA futures.
@drgnslayr said in Ute came to the right place:
Every team faces the same issue. It's not a valid excuse when you compete against teams facing that same problem. The problem is he doesn't know how to reach them, or teach them.
This is the oldest team in college basketball with the most experience. There is no excuse for playing this level of basketball.
How many schools have multiple players on 7 figure, or close to it, NIL deals where those players have zero chance of ever making the NBA? Name them.
@drgnslayr This is the issue with high dollar NIL deals for players who don't have an NBA future. They don't care because they got theirs. It happens in the pros a lot to when a player signs a huge contract and their production amd performance drops off a cliff.
@drgnslayr said in Ute came to the right place:
Bill's lost it. Even his technical was weak and unconvincing at Utah. He doesn't have fire behind his eyes anymore.
I'll be shocked if he goes another year. Shocked.
The question is... does he stay and mentor a replacement?
He hasn't lost it, he's just over this team and this group. This was his response about KU getting off to slow starts and he pretty much threw the team under the bus for their lack of motivation and effort.
"I think you should probably ask the players that. The first possession they score off a simple ball screen, and we're in a certain coverage. And guys were surprised were surprised we were in it and we've only been talking about it for, you know, 24-48 hours. So that's frustrating. I don't know exactly what that answer is coming out of a half time different or starting a game differently. I really don't know what the answer is on that, because it seems to me to start any athletic contest both teams are usually pretty geeked up and on point. Even though you don't always play well, but usually the mistakes that you make aren't because you aren't aware of that. 'This is how we're going to try to guard.'"
Most of y'all know I coach at my middle school. I coach football, basketball and soccer there. Every year at the beginning of the first basketball and soccer practices, I ask my team why they're out there to play (I'm head coach of those sports, not football though). Are they out there for fun or to try and win a district championship? I then explain the differences in how I will coach them depending on what they want their experience to be. After they inevitably choose to go for a district championship, I then explain to them what goes into winning a district championship and if they're ready to make those sacrifices. Most teams ended up putting forth their best effort to reach that goal and some were successful, some weren't, but they were better teams and players by end of that season. It's been a successful strategy with several basketball championships and rebuilt our school's soccer program from the worst in the district when I took over to a championship team last season.
@SlimShaddy54 said in The rest of the season:
@jay4ever The crazy thing about it is KU is 2nd in the Big Twelve defending the three point shot at 38.7%- -which also ranks 10th Nationally.
KU's 1st in the Big 12 in 3FG% and 11th nationally. Opponents are only making 29.2% of their 3's on the year and 28.4% in Big 12 play.
Overall, KU's opponents are only making 38.6% of all their FG attempts which is 9th nationally and 1st in the Big 12.
Source: https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/kansas/men/2025.html ā
@TYOHawk It's been addressed. You're just choosing to ignore/not accept that plans don't always work out as anticipated. Have a nice day.
@TYOHawk said in Ute came to the right place:
Who did he recruit to take the ball out of Dajuanās hands and not play alongside him?
Iāll be waiting cause it never happened.
I already laid it out for you and have pretty explicitly said multiple times that obviously that vision didn't work out as anticipated. You choosing to not accept that was the vision at the time doesn't change that was the vision at the time.
So tell me, after the 2020-21 season with Marcus Garrett as the starting PG, how many people were projecting Dejuan Harris to win the starting PG job long term with a 2021 class that included Remy Martin, Bobby Pettiford, JCL, and Joe Yesufu? Did Self bring all those players in that class because he thought Dejuan Harris was going end up being a 4 year starter? You don't bring that many potential short and long term answers in because you think the answer is ready on the roster.
I'm done responding to you on this, I've answered your question multiple times, you choose whether you want to accept that answer or keep using hindsight, but I'm done addressing it.
@TYOHawk said in Ute came to the right place:
@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Ute came to the right place:
@TYOHawk said in Ute came to the right place:
Hereās the thing..he never tried to recruit over KJ and Dajuan. Thatās what puzzling to me and a result of him being stubborn.
This is an objectively false statement. At PG, Self has brought in Bobby Pettiford, Jalen Coleman-Lands, Remy Martin, and Elmarko Jackson.
At forward, Zach Clemence was in the same class as KJ. Others expected to take minutes from KJ were Ernest Udeh, Zuby Ejiofor.
Obviously, none of those options worked out except for Remy for the last few games, but to say Self never attempted to upgrade those positions is just flat out wrong.
This is untrue imo. Pettiford wasnāt ever a threat to take minutes from him. JCL is more of a two guard than anything. Remyā¦no need to go into that situation but we had an actual nba player coming off the bench for a minute due to Self not benching Harris. Elmarko played the two as well as Arterio Morris even though they were evaluated as point guards. They played as secondary ball handlers cause God forbid anyone actually gets to be the primary handler when Dajuan is on the team.
Clemence came in the same class. Zuby and Udeh are 5ās which theoretically KJ is but he complained about playing the 5. So we moved him to the 4 and have yet to try to upgrade. We passed on getting Harrison Ingram who ended up being a NBA player due to KJ.
Hindsight is easy to claim Self didn't attempt to because those players didn't pan out as hoped for. It still doesn't change that the reality was that Self and staff did attempt to recruit over Harris and Adams.
When Self brought in Pettiford, JCL, and Remy, all in the same class, the expectation was never that Dejuan Harris would be the long term starting PG because he was not a starter at that point. Marcus Garrett was the starting PG during Dejuan's 1st season playing with Dejuan coming off the bench that year.
The plan the following year was that Remy starts, then Pettiford would take over the following year. Self absolutely recruited that class with the expectation of Pettiford winning that job long term. Also, notice that I did not bring up Aterio Morris because he wasn't brought in to be a lead guard. Elmarko Jackson was and was forced to move off ball because of Morris being kicked off the team. Jackson was absolutely expected to start as a back up and push Dejuan for minutes as the season went on.
With KJ, Clemence was always the bigger name in the class and expected to take those minutes. KJ played 5 minutes per game as a freshman. He was not guaranteed to start the following year. That happened because Udeh and Ejiofor weren't good enough to take those minutes. And no, Zuby was not projected to be a 5 long term, he was projected as a 4 long term. That's the spot he's playing now at St. John's. Hunter Dickinson coming in and running those two off changed the outlook of KU that season because there was a lot of talk of KJ also leaving because of Hunter.
So again, just because the players didn't pan out as expected, that doesn't change that Self didn't make efforts early on. Later on, there's politics involved in recruiting that play into situations like recruiting over multi year starters. For better or worse, the optics of recruiting over guys like Harris and Adams later on would have a negative impact on Self's reputation among recruits, especially multi year prospects.
There's absolutely a balancing act involved and too many people here don't understand how important that aspect of the job is.
@TYOHawk said in Ute came to the right place:
Hereās the thing..he never tried to recruit over KJ and Dajuan. Thatās what puzzling to me and a result of him being stubborn.
This is an objectively false statement. At PG, Self has brought in Bobby Pettiford, Jalen Coleman-Lands, Remy Martin, and Elmarko Jackson.
At forward, Zach Clemence was in the same class as KJ. Others expected to take minutes from KJ were Ernest Udeh, Zuby Ejiofor.
Obviously, none of those options worked out except for Remy for the last few games, but to say Self never attempted to upgrade those positions is just flat out wrong.
@kjayhawks said in Ute came to the right place:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Right but itās same story, Hunt doesnāt attempt to play defense and never has at any point in his collegiate career, heās lazy as hell on the glass. KJ super under sized big, struggles to get rebounds and shots off in the paint rendering him useless most nights without a jump shot. Juan was pretty good tonight but heās very limited athletically and isnāt aggressive enough offensively. AJ Storr was notorious for lacking effort thru out the season. Zeke Mayo canāt play defense never has/ never will. The jury has been on this for years! Please explain to me how when this is known by the coach none of it is his fault. Itās called accountability he built this roster and it arguably the worst in 40 years
Did I say Self was blameless? No, I did not. Is Bill Self 100% responsible? Again, no he is not. At what point do the players bear any responsibility for their play on the court? This where I take major issues with you and others views because y'all never place the blame on the players when they play with zero effort, it's always Bill Selfās fault for not properly motivating his team. So again, at what point do these players bear any responsibility for their lack of effort on the court?
And yes, I do believe NIL is a factor in that self motivation. Who are the two players that have been criticized the most for lack of effort this season? Do you really think it's a coincidence that Dickinson and Storr are also the highest paid NIL players on the team and also the two most often criticized for a lack of effort on the floor. They have their money, they know they aren't NBA players at this point, and that jas shown bright and clear with their effort at times this season.
So yes, Bill Self gets the blame for the roster construction, but the players take 100% of the blame for their lack of effort on the court.
You can even go back and check what I said about this team before the season when someone else here was trying to rip me a new one for saying this team was only slightly better than last season's when he was claiming this team was going to make a deep run despite ignoring me pointing out the lack of NBA talent on the roster this season.
@kjayhawks said in Ute came to the right place:
@mayjay He built this roster and coaches them every day for them to turn out the say lazy ass performance. Please enlighten me on how Bill isnāt accountable for this, this team is exactly what I said it would be with Juan (played great tonight), KJ and Hunt.
Self can only repeat the same message so many times. At some point, the players on the floor have to make a decision if they give a damn or not about their pride and effort. If they're fine with collecting their NIL checks and that's the most important thing to them, then this is what we'll get.
@wissox said in Ute came to the right place:
Saw something about KState being the best team in the country the last several weeks, had some weird stat to back it up, but they got blasted by our next opponent today.
Torvik, and it was during their 6 game winning streak that included 4 wins over ranked teams.
@DanR said in Ute came to the right place:
@wissox I wonder if it's better to get a scrappy, hungry kid from a second tier program (Tonje/Mayo etc) rather than a disgruntled power conference transfer.
Just don't get a transfer that wants 7 figures or is only going to the highest bidder.
Griffen has been dog shit bad so far with two bad turnovers.
@SlimShaddy54 said in If Billās roster falls apartā¦:
@Texas-Hawk-10 I agree with Jackson- -- Peterson - - Griffen-- & Flory - - Storr ? - -Nope but everyone has their opinion on that no problem there. Would be a good or should be a good balanced group- -now add some quality depth to that , add Diggy coming off the bench for a few minutes would be a start
Just remember how many rumors there were about Elmarko leaving last season only for him to never enter the portal. NIL may affect next season's roster more than you think. Storr is rumored to be making somewhere between $750k-$1 mil. Don't be too shocked if that is a big enough influence for AJ to hang around another season.
@SlimShaddy54 said in If Billās roster falls apartā¦:
@rcjhdraft You need a five man to take Hunters point production- Peterson stepping in and taking of May's point production --different positions
You're not directly replacing everyone's scoring numbers position for position and you don't need to do it that way. Flory is nowhere near as skilled as Hunter and won't average 17 ppg. Doke was never a skilled played and could be taken out of games by more skilled players, part of why he never averaged more than 13 ppg. Flory is probably closer to that range.
Overall, KU is averaging 76 ppg with only 2 players in double figures this season. That's a big issue this season as we don't have a reliable 3rd or 4th option. That's what KU needs next season. Peterson probably does lead the team in scoring next season. From there, who's the second scorer going to be? Will it be Flory or Elamrko? What's the wing going to look like? I know you assume everyone leaves, but we all thought several players would leave last season that didn't because of NIL.
At this point, I could see KU running a starting line up with Jackson, Peterson, Griffen, Storr, and Bidunga next season as a starting line up. I still think a starting caliber 4 is the biggest need in the portal.
@jay4ever Vick left the team for "personal reasons" and didn't return meaning was kicked off the team. One of the biggest positives abiut Self is that when he kicks someone off the team, he doesn't always frame it that way in order to not ruin a kid's career.
With Vick when he declared for the draft after his junior year, that was Self kicking him off the team because Vick wasn't an NBA prospect. The expectation was Vick would withdraw from the draft and transfer. Somehow, Vick got back into Self's good graces enough to return to KU for his senior season. The story is Vick's attitude deteriorated later on during the season and the family emergency was real, but something that would've only meant missing 1 or 2 games if I'm remembering right, and Self used it as a way to kick Vick off the team without publicly kicking Vick off the team.
The team chemistry that season was much better and KU played a lot better down the stretch than before Vick left the team.
@approxinfinity said in Wait, KU is playing?:
@Texas-Hawk-10 roster construction was still a problem then, but not minute distributionā¦ good old days.
Roster construction wasn't a huge issue that season. That team was just insanely young with Vick and Dedric Lawson being the only upper classmen in the rotation, and I'm deliberately excluding Doke because he missed 75% of that season. The core of that team was who ended the next season as title favorites. Dotson, Doke, Agbaji, Garrett, and McCormack were all back the next season and the core of that 2020 team.
@jay4ever said in If Billās roster falls apartā¦:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Fair enough. Are you coach Nijeem? That's what he's been telling Flo.
I hear ya. That's why he needs minutes. We've seen KJ lost ball just as much. One thing coaching staff never corrects, his arms are always hanging instead of anticipate passes. Flo is born ready... to score. But yeah, I guess he needs to be able to protect ball in possession and learn how to lock down in the paint, etc..
More game minutes doesnāt fix Flory's strength issue. There is no short cut for Flory bulking up, he just needs time in the weight room as he continues to physically mature. KJ's issues are not the same as Flory's. KJ rarely loses a ball once he gains possession of it. He just has stone hands and struggles to gain possession of the ball at times.
@jay4ever said in If Billās roster falls apartā¦:
Iām still trying to wrap my head around thisājust look at this dude!
Flo lives to rack up points! Heās a blocking machine, crashes the boards like a proā¦
So why isnāt he getting more touches? Does the coach believe in him? Do his teammates trust him to deliver?
Heās a STRIKER. FLO LOVES TO PUT BALLS IN THE NETS. LET HIM COOK!
He's not strong enough and he fouls too much. On defense, he still falls for seemingly every shot fake which leads to him picking up a bunch of cheap fouls. He's also just not physically strong enough to dominate yet. He's had plenty of rebounds stolen from him and he gets pushed off his spot too easily around other bigs.
The fouling issue will hopefully come with experience and he learns the game more. The second issue with his strength will be fixed in time and we should see a huge leap next season once he goes through a full off season strength and conditioning program and starts to fill out his frame more. The key there is determining what his ideal weight is to added the necessary strength while keeping his explosiveness .
@kjayhawks said in Wait, KU is playing?:
I just hate how he get pulled after one mistake and we go back Bill playing favorites. Some guys can get away with some pretty silly plays as long as they are Bills pets. The more he dies that and the more Flory sits on the bench, the less recruits will be interesting unless they are already on draft board. Remember how Self rode freshman Grimes coat tails for 30 minutes a game tho he stank up the place more often than not. Feel like their needs to a happy medium
Grimes played the minutes he did because there weren't better options that season. That team had 8 guys start at least 9 games and only 3 that started all 36. Doke only played 9 games before injury ended his season, Vick was kicked off the team, Self had to pull Ochai Agbaji's redshirt because that team had no depth. 5 different players started between 9-20 games that season. The other options for Grimes minutes that season were Charlie Moore or KJ Lawson.
Who would've gotten those minutes over Grimes? The two options were Charlie Moore or KJ Lawson. Self didn't have a quick hook with Grimes because the other options were the two that were worse than Grimes.
@drgnslayr said in Wait, KU is playing?:
Passmore basically gets walk on minutes. He isnāt even a role player. A hundred miles from a Travis Releford. He canāt be judged when playing 1 or 2 minutes every 5 or 6 games. I never thought he was ready for rotation minutesā¦ but heās not even above walk ons.
Releford wasn't a rotation player either as a freshman, and had several DNP's that year and then redshirted his 2nd year. Obviously, I'm not comparing 1st year Passmore to 5th year Releford, but that's the player comp for Passmore. That's what Passmore can eventually develop into if he stays at Kansas. And no, you don't need to see exclusively his KU film to see that comparison.
The guards for next season appear to be Elmarko, Diggy, Peterson, and McDowell.
Passmore could play the 2 as well, but he's more of a wing with Storr and Griffen.
We all thought we'd lose more players to the portal than we did last season and NIL was likely a huge part of that.
I know not many people really want to see AJ Storr return, but with how much he's allegedly making in NIL here this season, does he return because of financial reasons? Does anybody know if he's still with his girlfriend that was a big factor in transferring to KU or have they broken up at some point?