HighEliteMajor said:
Right now, at KU, would we rather have Self for the next 10 years, or Beard?
I think its a valid question. I'd like Self to go to Vegas and renew his marriage vows to Defense. If he can find that sweet spot of Bill Self circa 2006-2012, I would not be wondering "what if?" about Beard.
If Dotson stays, then it's easy to see Dotson, Ochai and Dave as an excellent foundational class to get there.
FarmerJayhawk said:
@Crimsonorblue22 Zion is more likely to need the Nike surgery for when he detonates another shoe!
Wonder if ESPN will show the surgery live on all its networks?
lol, so good.
Ok, well I hope you're right obviously. Let's not bank on having him.
@KirkIsMyHinrich we still need Doke to make it through a season to compete with anyone. If we only get a PF and SDS isn't eligible, we are still a bit thin in the frontcourt. I'm guessing we end the season with PF transfer + Dave starting and Mitch first big off bench.
feel like Snacks is turning a corner ... https://247sports.com/Coach/Jerrance-Howard-1451/AllTimeRecruits/ ↗
@wissox I'm talking smack to keep the conversation going and doing a bad job of it. :)
As an outsider looking in, wondering if you guys who follow the Chiefs closely are happy with the draft results?
I got your dislike right here when you play the Nats.
Actually, you're not a division rival and you've never eliminated us in the playoffs (Cards, Giants, Dodgers, Cubs = my extradivisional sh---list), what do I care?
@Marco I disagree with you about everything re: Dotson. But I think you make good points, and you could be right.
I do think he returns and I do think we need him.
@Marco source? Gut?
dylans said:
Kcmatt7 said:
BeddieKU23 said:
That is a good point about merging into one. 247 and Scout did it recently but even that pool of fans was one-sided in size with the Phog having way more. I don't think many on here would stick around if this place one day merged with the Phog. Nightmare over there and takes away from some of the people that post on there that actually are good.
Basically 90% of this board would not last on the Phog. I agree.
Phog was around before this place. I chose here for a reason. Thanks @approxinfinity !
Tell the good ones to come on over! :)
@BeddieKU23 thanks! I'd love to add sheets for other teams and I'd also love to isolate the same exact stats for KU in the tournament for each year.
If anyone knows somewhere that this data or other juicy data is already in a table please let me know! And also ping me if you want to contribute directly.
One thing that jumps out from our title year is that the only negatives were opponents rebounds, assists, and our turnovers. This was a team that played fast and loose, but played excellent O and could hang it's hat on D.
@Gorilla72 Hey! So in response to your comment in the other thread:
“These are troubling times for Bill Self. Adapt or perish times.”
I don’t understand this comment. Would you elaborate?
I think this heatmap illustrates the problem well. Look at all that red the last 3 seasons. Yes, we made an E8 and a F4, but those ended in double digit losses. Yes, we were very strong in a couple key areas, but overall Bill is trending in the wrong direction statistically, especially on the defensive side, if these stats are indicative of anything (i'll leave that open to debate).
OK! The heatmap is complete!
for sure! maybe we can add another sheet for that.
the spectrum for each stat is turning out nice! almost like a heat map.
Hm. Alright, well. I suppose I have to commit to a date on the nodebb upgrade.Hopefully if these are bugs they've fixed them. I'll try to do it this weekend.
@nuleafjhawk haha, thanks bud! Glad you like it. I'm debating highlighting all the seasons in a color arc from best to worst or just the best three / worst three (thats what I'm currently doing, albeit slowly. if one of the longtimers wants to help with that private message me and I can add you as editor).
One thing that stands out is that we've had two of our top 3 seasons for points in the last 3 years, and 2 of our worst three seasons for points given up. This past year being the intersection of an average points for, and worst points again, resulting in worst scoring differential under Self.
The lack of three point shooting killed us this year. Notice that the last 3 years prior to last season were our 3rd most, 2nd most, and top three point made seasons, then we fell off this year. I think Self really banked on three point shooting from a few guys. He probably thought Dedric would be free to shoot 3s more with SDS and Doke in the mix, and that Q and Charlie would be able to hit the broad side of a barn.
One thing that I didn't realize re: 3 pt shooting that blew my mind is that our opponents made more 3s than us our championship year! Maybe that's why Self is stubborn about the high-low? "It's been done!"
@BeddieKU23 Dave was still an All-American. I'm not sold that he's thinking he's a 4 year player. Hope so.
I definitely focus on Doke's weaknesses, but I'm trying this year to be realistic about where we stand, relying somewhat on others to speak of the positives re: Doke :)
@Marco ah, you tried profile - edit- upload pic and it didn't work?
Hmm? Someone is deleting your topics?
Here's a spreadsheet where I aggregated season stats for all Bill Self seasons. The 2004-2005 stats don't appear to be available, hence the hole there.
If anything looks interesting, call it out!
I like the Doke return because I like the kid. I think he tries hard and he cares. If we didn't have kids I like I wouldn't watch. My heart wants Doke to dunk all over everyone. But my brain is nagging me....
I don't like the Doke return because I want guys without major flaws. I thought his departure would be the end of an era. Now it seems that era continues another year. If we play Feed The Doke (and assuming he doesn't develop a passing game) will our other guys stand around and watch him either collect 2 points, get hacked and brick FTs, or get double teamed and cough it up? Will Big Dave develop? Will he play with Doke, or be designated the "other 5" by Self, while Mitch collects the bulk on the minutes at 4 and SDS languishes in ineligibility at the end of the bench? Will we become dependent upon Doke just in time to lose him for the post season?
Doke only works if there are other pieces, and those other pieces are used appropriately.
I'm glad for the kid, and I will root for him, and I think we can be pretty good. But I think I take Self's common descriptor of his teams literally more now that ever. "Pretty good." Not great.
DDot returns, Rayjon Tucker is what people claim he is, SDS gets reinstated and Doke stays healthy, then I might dream we have the talent to win it all.
But I still want to see the pieces fit. and see Bill put them together.
We've lost by double digits the last 3 years in our elimination game. And I think about the players we had in 2017 and 2018. Frank, Devonte, Svi, and Newman (in tourney) were all great shooters. I mean GREAT shooters! It wasn't enough. This last season we ended up ranked 17th in the AP, 16th being our previous worst under Self, his first season (and we know how dysfunctional Self was with that team). These are troubling times for Bill Self. Adapt or perish times.
@BShark good read, thanks
@jayballer73 Nice hype video.
I disagree on "getting Hampton to commit and reclassify". Theres a whole lot of writing between the lines on that statement.
If he can't stay healthy he will need that degree.
@HighEliteMajor Timothy is the patron invoked against stomach and intestinal disorders.
For those who got nauseous when Doke went down for rest of season, let's hope he protects us from ulcers this year.
Another sheet I want to start is success of coaches in tournaments, including coaching tree info (this guy was this other guys understudy)
@HighEliteMajor nice UNC comp!
Im thinking maybe we should start a shared Google spreadsheet to aggregate our info on recruiting class rankings and how they pan out for several teams, including transfers (it seems silly at this point that rivals etc don't include transfers as part of recruiting classes. Archaic!) As always my appetite exceeds my drive to do it alone. Would you guys be interested in working on such a thing with me?
@BShark meant to post this yesterday; the VT faithful are starting to feel less doom and gloomy about Mike Young's hiring as he builds his staff. Most of their recruits (and players) appear to be staying committed now. Blackshear might even stay.
In other news, Vegas Knights, i.e. NHLs castaways are leading their first round playoff series again this year.
We need 12 guys that are hungry, athletic, arent brickmasons and have something to prove. Bill can make a team out of them.
Does hiring an agent still mean that you waive your eligibility?
@BShark where's the 1000 % emoji when you need it
@justanotherfan I don't question any of those kids for leaving, other than Grimes, but I think the more important thing here isn't whether they should be leaving, it is whether they should be coming.
Bill knew Grimes wanted to play PG, why else would he have him run point on the FIBA team? And he did well there. So, it seems Bill recruited talent over need with Grimes, and I think that proved to be not good for either party.
As for Dedric, KJ, and Charlie, again I think we should be asking why we recruited them in the first place. Their decision to leave makes sense. But the risk that has been taken on in SDS with his recruiting violations, an injury prone non-FT-shooting, low rebounding Doke, a non FG shooting Garrett, a non-athletic two-year investment Dedric, ditto sidekick KJ, and a low FG% chucking undersized Charlie is enormous. Tack on an out of position disgruntled 5-star in Grimes.
Why did Bill take on so much risk all at once?
@drgnslayr that reminds me, I need to get after my kids with some rebounding practice. They're big boys. They tend to stand around a bit too much waiting for the board to fall their way.
@drgnslayr nice post. At the time Malik left I wasn't thinking it was a bad decision, I think I'm biased with 20-20 hindsight and focusing more heavily on the showcase aspect of being a centerpiece at Kansas. Risk of injury and whether he had hit his ceiling certainly are important considerations. Thanks for the counterweight!
@nuleafjhawk well it isn't the kids' fault. Products of their environment. We just need to Target kids that will stick around and develop until it's truly the right time to bounce. No doubt Jerome and Hunter will bounce. They'd be foolish not to. The only recent team I remember that stuck around with stock high after a championship was Florida with Noah.
Thanks for all the insights on recruiting guys. Never have I been so interested in our targets.
@HighEliteMajor today at UVAs celebration they played this year's one shining moment video and replaced the seven Zion and Morant clips with highlights from all the UVA players
kjayhawks said:
Remember folks Dook and Coach K have had the best recruiting class for 3 years running. Zion, Barrett and guys are winning all sorts of awards now that the season is over. But they only have a ACC regular season and tournament title to show with zero FFs. That alone makes me surprised that Coach K has came out in support of the OAD rule. A
Maybe Coach K is [not / no longer] a good coach. Maybe OADs require him to do less work.
@HighEliteMajor @nuleafjhawk too bad JoJo wasn't on a championship team. I have a hard time saying no JoJo, though the odds of a non presumed OAD who doesn't protect the goods and becomes a OAD and perennial NBA all star seems very very low. Nothing wrong with a non presumed OAD becoming one.
This transfer business is like the mafia, once you think we're out, they pull us back in. Causes the potential for massive attrition when the transfers don't stick around, making the staff need to get more transfers to stagger the open rosters with various classes and a decent depth of talent last minute.
Round and round we go.
Woodrow said:
Stanley is visiting Duke this weekend.
Unfortunately we know how this story ends. They are going to swoop in and get him and hurt this next week.
Whatever will be will be. All I want is:
- an athletic kid
- with a non-broken shot
- who can move his feet
- and who wants to work hard and get better
- and help his team win
- and won't go pro until he's projected first round, or projected at his presumed highest in the draft
If that's Stanley, awesome. Come on down. If it isn't, then on to the next kid.
After this year of uncertainty and Self-doubt, I've found comfort in resting my eyes on the original rules of basketball, remembering that corruption can skirt the rules, but it cannot change them.
!
↗
!https://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/a2deh0/picture77637092/alternates/FREE_1140/Kansas-Naismith%20Rules ↗ ↗
@Kcmatt7 I'm actually really happy there were no HRs for the Nats. they've been living and dying by the long ball (all their RBIs) recently, but were still getting on with base hits.
@Texas-Hawk-10 great point. But that raises a few questions.
To what extent do you think UVA or TT pays to play? To what extent were kids directed there by the shoecos? To what extent were the kids paid to play under Self at Orel Roberts or Tulsa? To what extent did the Shoecos direct kids there? How much less fun has recruiting gotten for Self over time?
"Personally, for me, recruiting ... it's never been fun. I don't know if there are a lot of college coaches who would say recruiting is fun" -- Bill Self
What autonomy do Bill Self's assistants have in the recruiting process? Might it be akin to sending your spouse to the store to get a mental list of things you need, then being accepting of what they bring back and making it work because you know you should have gotten it your damn self?
@RockkChalkk 2 of them are spoken for.
@bskeet great post! I do think Tony Bennett had those guys defying all odds. Its the sign of a great coach. Much like KU down 9 with 2 minutes to go against Memphis. Bill Self and his players never burned so bright.
BShark said:
How will KU recover from losing the actual worst rotation player on the team?
Qharlie Grimoore?
test
I'm hopeful. We had a really great freshman class this year. We bring in another great freshman class (at least so far) next year. High quality guards and energy bigs. Suited for modern ball. That being said, I'd like to do some comparison of Self players vs. Bennett players prior to this years class.
Diakite - 4 star recruit. Went to Virginia over Baylor, NC State, Loyala and Okie State. https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2015/mamadi-diakite-3416 ↗
SDS - 5 star recruit. Went to KU over Florida, Illinois, Louisville and Maryland. https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2018/silvio-de-sousa-2757 ↗
Both energy bigs. Which would you rather have baggage and all, knowing what you know now? What if Diakite stays another year and SDS never plays again?
Jay Huff - 4 star recruit
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2016/jay-huff-774 ↗
Jack Salt - 3 star recruit, no other schools
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2014/jack-salt-30151 ↗
Udoka - 4 star McD All American
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2016/udoka-azubuike-917 ↗
I'm going to posit a 2-for-1 here. If you want, we can make this a 2 for 3...throw in KJ a ? star recruit, and Dedric, a 4 star recruit, each of which you get 1 year and then then they leave.
Now I know nobody could foresee Udoka being so injury prone, but even if he were healthy, I ask... do you want a giant McD with broken form and only back to the basket game... Someone who likely expects starter minutes, someone you promise starter minutes... Or do you want a giant back to the basket only big with broken form who doesn't mind sitting out entire games and is ready to be the match up guy when his number is called (Salt)?
And as for Huff vs Dedric & KJ, do you want a guy that plays within the gameflow and will do whatever is needed of his team to win games (Huff), and shoots 45% from 3 and doesn't mind sitting out entire games, or 2 guys that expect major minutes and major touches/shots and seldom play defense?
One more comparison.
Malik Newman - 5 star recruit, transfered to Kansas. Great tournament run the one year he was on the floor for us.
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2015/malik-newman-1896 ↗
We really could have used him this year, but gone. Once a 5 star seeking fortune, always a 5 star seeking fortune?
Deandre Hunter - 4 star
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2016/deandre-hunter-2031 ↗
Ty Jerome - 4 star
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2016/ty-jerome-926 ↗
Kyle Guy - 4 star
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2016/kyle-guy-1251 ↗
Hunter and Jerome are likely gone because they are projected lottery and late 1st round respectively. Guy is likely staying because he is not. All three had moments of dominance in the tournament.
Malik was content leaving undrafted. Why? In my mind, I'd rather have the guy that stays until his stock is as high as it's going to be. Why even bother with a 1 year (+1 year practice guy) rental?
Malik to Kansas in 2016-2017. Same year that UVA was snatching up these three guys.
As I said I'm hopeful. But as some, @HighEliteMajor, others have said in the past, we can absolutely be critical of the issues with recruiting that Bill Self did prior to this year's class, and only hope that he recognizes his errors and does not repeat them going forward.
Namely, I never want to make sacrifices for 5 stars again. Either they're sterling kids or HARD PASS. And I also want to put to rest the fallacy that we have to recruit 5 stars to compete for a national championship. Neither Beard nor Bennett did.
