🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Kcmatt7 said:

Seriously, how does Dayton still have a job? He lucked in to a WS and will never even be able to replicate a playoff team.

@Kcmatt7 I just saw this post. Are you out of your mind? Lucked into a WS? This is outrageously uninformed.

Moore assembled a team that went to one WS, and won another.

He's what I can recall of the top of my head that were his doing -

Moose
Hosmer
Herrera
Perez
Holland
Volquez
Ventura
Cain
Escobar
Zobrist
Cueto
Madsen
Davis
Shields
Hochaver
Morales

And .. he had the fortitude to keep Ned Yost.

I will be awaiting your attempt to here to explain your ... uh ... lack of insight.

Or, better, express with sincere humility that you misspoke and we can all respect you for it.

nuleafjhawk said:

@HighEliteMajor said: "Third, need a commitment from the player on flexibility should injuries and situations dictate. Fourth, focus on kids that are team players and have that mindset."

So, I've talked about women's basketball a little bit lately, mostly because I'm starting to think that they are better ballplayers and better teammates than the men players ( another discussion... ) - but what you said up there ^^^ is so true. It makes me think of Chloe Jackson, the point guard for the Baylor Lady Bears - this year. The reason I said "this year" is because she was a senior in college and this was the first year that she had EVER played point guard. You think she was scared? Mad? Like, "hey - I'm pretty bad***, maybe i shouldn't have to play a position that I've never played before."

But she did. She listened to the advice of her coaches - and maybe no one else, i don't know. But she took on the attitude, "If this is what will help the team, then I'm going to give it my best shot." I really admire her.

Plus, it seemed to work out pretty well. Baylor Lady Bears - 2019 National Champs 82-81.

Right. On. Point. It's a pure game, and uncorrupted competition.

Women are prettier and smell better, too. But that's a different topic.

Somehow, if the situation fit, I think Frank Mason would have done the same thing.

But in the men's game, the Prima Donna fringe spoils the game.

Please, go make your millions. Just go now.

@justanotherfan My opinion, but there is no way Grimes plays PG in the NBA. A reasonable comp is someone like Wayne Selden. Has someone seen him projected as a PG? Or a comp provided by some site suggesting he's a PG?

But your point is a very good one -- "If we want highly rated guys to come to KU and stay at KU, we have to consider how they are being used and if the development they are getting is helping them. It has to be mutually beneficial."

The key for KU is the balance. First, no kid (or his dad, mom, grandma, guardian, or whoever) is going to dictate what they do. Second, any determination on role has to square with the team concept, and team needs. Third, need a commitment from the player on flexibility should injuries and situations dictate. Fourth, focus on kids that are team players and have that mindset.

Nothing is perfect though. But avoiding the presumed OAD guys like Grimes solves much of that.

As @justanotherfan alluded to, the kids have every right to work the deal that is best for them. A critical and important thing we should all remember. That is their right, it's their lives.

But KU has every right to say no and should say no when appropriate -- Selby, Wiggins, Grimes, Cliff, Diallo, et. al. I stand here and hold to the exact opinion I had back when Wiggins arrived (this alleged transcendent talent) -- we'd have been better off, a better TEAM, without him. Not because of Wiggins, but because of Self. The only presumed OAD that was worth the effort was JJ. Because he was able to fit in.

Self is the problem for OADs here. He's not a nurturer of presumed OADs. But that's because he's demanding and insistent that his way is the best way. That's why we win. Self doesn't need them. I'd rather have Self, and no OADs, than some coach getting two and three a year.

Self and presumed OADs just don't mesh as a general rule. Why fight it?

I'm with you, @nuleafjhawk, I think Grimes, overall, would have benefitted more in the long run by committing to another year, or two. Improving, working, becoming a force and a leader.

BucknellJayhawk3 said:

@HighEliteMajor My favorite KU years were when we had a big ol' shot blocker down low making every game a block party and matched with a potent offense makes for great basketball.

I have found it odd when Self has seemingly made those two elements mutually exclusive, when he has commented in the past. That somehow playing bada defense means grind it out games. You can certainly have both. But your bada defense may create few possessions due to the natural consequence of deeper shot clocks.

But more to your point, I do favor the TRob-Withey model, personally. I'm not a big fan of 4/1 unless you need to do it for your personnel.

I also believe it critical to incorporate an aggressive, perimeter defending zone so you don't have to change personnel to match a 4/1 where your bigs have trouble defending the perimiter, if you run with the TRob/Withey model.

@BeddieKU23 Are you referring Grimes? Hold on, I’m being told Grimes actually DID play this past season.

BShark said:

Achiuwa might be high drama/maintenance.

Ya think? And we're over a barrel it would appear. But I'll skip this presumed OAD. I'd rather start Lightfoot.

This is on Self. It's why you recruit. He's left us naked and exposed chasing the highly ranked guys he ... er, uh ... Adidas has apparently paid in the past.

It's simple .. the more time involved in a game, the more likely the better team will prevail. A shorter game, fewer possessions, decreases the margin for error, i.e., more susceptible to the upset. Not surprisingly, VA is the only 1 seed to lose the 16. They fit the mold of the type of team one would expect to be susceptible. It was the same thing we were concerned about with KU when Self liked the 59-56 slugfests. But that doesn't mean that such a team can't win six in a row. VA was very impressive.

@BucknellJayhawk3 You said, "When I watch Kansas I often think (at times!) about how sloppy our passes are or how ineffective our defense is; not every game, but there are stretches." ---- I would agree. Our three point defense has been for quite a while now inexplicably bad. Would never have thought that with a Self team.

I've wondered if he defends in a manner that invites the three, meaning he would rather defend close to the hoop, in sticking with his (prior) offensive philosophy that seemed to disfavor the three. Ok, not "seemed", it did.

While the change in the OAD rule will help, it won't stop players from going pro after one year of course. There will still be some of that. But the top 5-10 (or more depending on the year) guys generally can just go and make money. That will keep them from coming in and being one year distractions, and will hopefully keep Self from pursuing them in the hopes they don't turn pro. And for the guys that come here and then turn pro, it will hopefully be more because of going all in, improving, and playing well, vs. presuming they are going pro. It won't be perfect but it has to be better.

Woodrow said:

If we can't land this kid against those two schools with immediate playing time then WTF.

Perhaps the quote of the year ...

@MoonwalkMafia That's about as powerful as it gets. And it gives us some indication as to what may have occurred this season with Grimes. I don't believe I'd heard Collins' comments on that before, so thanks for posting. It's right on point.

@Fightsongwriter Respectfully, the likelihood of a national title has little to do with a blue blood — Duke, UNC, UK, KU — having that as the ultimate goal each season.

And your analysis ignores the relative likelihood — the small group of teams that have won. This season was an aberration.

It seems to me that without the goal and expectation of a NC each year, and just the pedestrian goal of making the tournament, we’re a glorified K-State. No thanks.

@Kcmatt7 Not really. Some might argue that KU plays to win a national title. And yes, I know the obvious. But the point is KU doesn’t play just to get in the tournament. That’s not the goal.

We might also consider that OADs like Duke because, as we’ve seen, ESPN provides over the top coverage of Duke. Also seemed that way with coach Cal and UK.

Kcmatt7 said:

Not even worried yet. At all. As long as Dotson is back this is a tournament team even with just the 7 guys we know.

That’s kind of a low bar. Tournament team?

Ok, so we know we don't have near the talent we did in 2017-18, right? Not even close.

And when we won with Doke, we also had a relatively fully functioning Legerald Vick who had some out of his mind games. Probably fair to say we lose at least two early without him.

Getting Doke back is probably our only best hope.

But I do have the one concern I mentioned.

@dylans Only two teams have won an NCAA title since Self has been at KU, with a OAD player, and those are UK in 2012 and Duke in 2015.

I'm wordsmithing here -- One year talent leaves after one year. An OAD. A presumed OAD is one that is assumed to leave going into the year. Just kind of how I think the terms are used. I don't know if you agree on the definitions there.

You mentioned one and two year "talent." KU didn't have a one year talent. Rush didn't leave after one year. Not an OAD and thus not a one year talent (but I get the argument on the knee injury, but he stayed three years). He was a presumed OAD though.

KU, of course, did have two year talent in Arthur. I think the two year talent point is good one. Three year is probably the best range, because they ramp up to NBA level talent.

I guess my point is that out of all the years that Self has been at KU, only two teams have won a NC with actual guys that are OADs. The OADs in those instances were also presumed OADS.

I wonder, and I know I looked at this a few years ago, what are the teams that won NCs with presumed OADs that stayed into their second, third, fourth seasons like KU did with Rush? Nobody on Nova's two NCs, UNC, and VA were presumed OADs that hung around, right?

Duke has three projected top 10 picks, all presumed OAD, and no FF to show for it.

Of course, teams can NOT win the NC with third and fourth year talent, as we've seen here. Even with really good upper classmen.

But it just seems obvious. SKIP PRESUMED OADs. As a strong general rule -- They are bad for your program. They bring drama. They create an environment that is not focused on the team achievement. They simply don't deliver. The evidence is undeniable.

@FarmerJayhawk Once concern I have for Doke returning .. we focus all of our preseason efforts on feeding the post and playing through Doke. And then, when we get in a game with a team that plays small, Self lets the other team dictate the style of play and we're in the same spot we've been in much of the time. And, of course, while I'm sure he's been "really working hard" on free throws, he'll be less than 50% again. Actually less than 40%. He was worse last season after supposed work than the year before.

Kcmatt7 said:
The entire FBI thing has absolutely killed us.

And @Kcmatt7 with the understatement of the year ... what a mess this has been.

Very nice! Now those are some rules. I could use a trampoline.

@truehawk93 Of course, I didn't say Self was the only one.

So, in one paragraph, I think you highlight the hypocrisy that gets floated around sometimes on this topic. You state that "all coaches" are aware of shoe companies' influence, you day you "doubt that is Self is the only coach" involved in this stuff, you seemingly "accuse" coach K, but you react with righteous indignation related to discussions regarding coach Self. Come on.

You may or may not remember, but my biggest issue is Bill Self's definitive statement in November where he said that he was aware of no improper benefits given to KU BB players by third parties. Unequivocal.

I suggested he might have given a much more grey statement, acknowledging the nature of the recruiting game, stating commitment to clean recruiting, etc. But when you're unequivocal, you are out on a limb.

This is certainly all just accusation and discussion, and opinion.

Also, the judge didn't remind the "grand jury", he reminded the jury, that the defendants were on trial. Not Adidas. The individual defendants, Gatto, et. al. Which, of course, when they are on trial, he/she should remind the jury of that. And that is why in such a trial all the info one might have on coaches doesn't come out, because the judge limits what is presented based on relevance and a number of other factors.

@BShark When LeGerald Vick is in Memphis tending to necessary personal business ... uh, allegedly ... my guess is that young man isn't attending classes either.

What gives?

Self's only mishandling of Grimes was not sitting his tail on the bench. I'm not sure what else you can do for a kid.

@truehawk93 Who says Self is innocent until proven guilty? This isn’t a criminal court. I’m comfortable connecting dots. But then again, it’s just one guy’s dot connecting.

I’m not suggesting that Self should resign or be fired. So I’m missing your point there. But I can sure as h*ll criticize Self for this Adidas mess. He’s the boss. He’s in charge. And he used Adidas to recruit.

Maybe your point is to trash Pearl. But I’m not defending Pearl. I just appreciate what he’s done and the type of coach he is. Not someone I’d want over Self. But he has done an amazing job at Auburn. Pearl paid for his issues.

@kjayhawks I agree 100% too. Everyone is should be entitled to make money, leave college, do what they want, when they want.

@kjayhawks Is this social media?

I bash the continued failure of Self bringing in presumed OADs. This was a complete failure. A complete waste of time.

I sure wish Grimes would have stayed.

The presumed use of KU as a pit stop has NEVER paid the anticipated dividends for KU, except maybe JJ — but there was no FF even there.

We need to focus on non-OADs, and commit to those non-OADs that we will never recruit over them with a presumed OAD. But I’ve said that for quite a while now.

@Kcmatt7 Technicalities, technicalities ...

@jayballer73 ".. our recruiting lass"

Hmmm, that might get us in trouble.

Man, I thought UCLA should have gone after Bruce Pearl. That dude brings energy wherever he goes.

... and taxes. Imagine that.

https://www.thebalance.com/california-state-taxes-amongst-the-highest-in-the-nation-3193244 ↗

But, of course, there is a wonderful climate and the ocean. That's the balance.

Notice that KU wanted over $1 million in restitution, and got something south of $200,000.

@jayballer73 Don't for one second believe that Bill Self didn't know. Oh, he maybe was shielded from the detail. I can't conclude Self didn't know. In fact, it seems clear the boss would have knowledge of what was going on and how players were corralled. See below on some of what was reported. I'm sure they're just talking about good old fashioned arm twisting and convincing. I'm not going to ignore the obvious. And I'm not going to try to work to give Bill Self the benefit of the doubt. This is way too obvious.

Gassnola also asked Self to call him when he had five minutes and was alone, with the two speaking for five minutes and six seconds, per the defense. The call wasn’t wiretapped, and when Gassnola was asked whether he could remember the topic of conversation, Gassnola said that he couldn’t recall.

Gassnola also texted Self on Sept. 19, 2017 to thank Self on getting the 12-year Adidas extension completed, with Self responding that “he was happy with Adidas and wrote ‘Just got to get a couple real guys,’” according to The Star.

Gassnola’s answer: “In my mind, it’s KU, Bill Self. Everyone else fall into line. Too (expletive) bad. That’s what’s right for Adidas basketball. And I know I’m right. The more you have lottery picks and you happy. That’s how it should work in my mind.” Self replied by text, “That’s how ur (sic) works. At UNC and Duke.” Gassnola added Kentucky to that list, along with a pledge: “I promise you I got this. I have never let you down. Except Deandre. Lol. We will get it right.”

I think I'd go with VA and the over.

@FarmerJayhawk I don't know. You have more faith than I do. But my opinion, no team is winning a national title starting a LL at center. As discussed back in the day, ATHLETE -- LL just had matchups where he was horribly exposed. '16 Nova, '17 Oregon as examples. You know, the most important games of the season.

Back when LL was on the team, I think we looked back over Self's tenure and could only locate maybe one NC team with a similar post handicap, thinking Louisville maybe 2013? My LL/Traylor notebook is in storage maybe.

When a guy wins a national title, overcomes the unprecedented embarrassment of losing to a 16 seed -- match that with a stellar sideline demeanor -- it's incredibly impressive.

FarmerJayhawk said:

@kjayhawks Diallo and Selby are mine. If Diallo stays for 16-17 we absolutely run everyone. We start NPOY Frank and designated sniper Devonte, then the fun starts. We can go small and start Svi at the 3, Josh at the 4, and Cheick at the 5, or Josh at the 3, Cheick at the 4, and Landen at the 5. Either way we’re great. And you’d still have Bragg and Doke as your backup bigs. Cheick would’ve been the perfect matchup for Jordan Bell and Oregon. What could’ve been.

You make the assumption that Self would have started him over LL. Logical in all worlds except the one we live. I have zero faith that would have occurred. Diallo was the perfect match vs Nova in the 16 EE. And he sat. NC chance down the drain.

@wissox I agree .. but I think if you miss it, say, it comes to you and just bounces of your hands (accidentally -- the refs judgment that it was really a miss. Like bouncing off your back), that's not good enough to stop a subsequent dribble. Because there was no control. But if you control it by batting it to the ground, like a dribble, you can't then hold it and dribble again. Because the bat to the ground is actually control. Interesting.

My recollection is that for a dribble to occur, the contact (dribble) had to be caused by the player controlling the ball. If you don't control the ball, it's not dribble. So if a pass accidentally goes off your hands, you can pick it up, control it, and dribble. One instance we see is a pass is tapped by the player to the court. It bounces, he secures it, and then he dribbles. That's a double dribble. Because he controlled the ball to the floor by the initial tap. Not of course the situation in VA game, where the player already controlled it by dribbling, it went off him (technically a dribble too because he had controlled the ball), he secured it, and dribbled again. Of course, the player should have just dribbled as he took control of the ball again as opposed to grabbing it.

@dylans So, by your logic, if KSU wasn't trying to "dethrone" KU -- if ISU had won the league in 2018 -- then KSU wouldn't have worked so hard to win the league? So it was KU. Sorry, that's just laughable. I can understand the opinion that he could have rested for the NCAA tourney, if in fact his usage was the cause and then that usage being the cause was known before he did it. I.e., "You know what Dean, because your foot will likely react negatively if you play the next two games, you are really jeopardizing your availability for the tourney if you don't rest." But for that, no.

Stop being foolish. You know I don't hate those players. Saying "hatred" is just irresponsible. But it's what's done because it makes you feel better to say it. I liked both of them. Seemed like good kids. Generally, proud to have them on the team. However, I can say that, but logically, from a BB perspective, also realize that KU basketball on the court, would have been better if neither of them would have come to KU. Perhaps you can't separate that. I can.

Most 4-5 year guys are worse than Lucas? Where, here? Mason, Graham, Releford, Withey, Taylor, EJ ...

Don't try to absolve coach Self. He's the boss. He either brought in guys who were bad, had issues, or he flat wouldn't play for whatever reason. You take your pick. But this is his ship and he had LL starting on a NC caliber team, and had Traylor taking up valuable minutes and starting quite a bit. You can't have it both ways (at least logically).

Ah, but your last sentence makes a pretty comical excuse, and I assume you're saying this with a straight face. You seem to claim that our coaching and recruiting genius, Bill Self, was forced to take certain players by Adidas?

Hmmm .. maybe a consideration is this - Self's use of talented players caused recruits to hesitate to choose KU. They would see low talent security blankets get minutes and decide that they'd rather go to a place that they might have a better opportunity, and not the risk of finding Bill Self's bench. Then, with that in place, Self needed Adidas to get him players (and they had to pay for them).

Maybe that's not far fetched, as recruiting guys suggest Self's player usage, particularly on top guys, has always caused him issues.

@dylans Oh, are you Self’s little protector? His apologist? @wissox brought up Diallo for what it’s worth, I revisited Self’s foolishness — why? Because I felt like it. And, of course, as time has gone by, it’s more and more obvious that Self’s approach on Diallo was as foolish as I said at the time. The type of player (slug) Self relied on cost is in the exact manner that was discussed before it happened.

But it is all relevant to our current roster building right now.

It is so laughable to hear people — you at this time — try to defend the LL/Traylor disaster. How many top players did Self’s misguided love affair with those two cost us?

And KU didn’t effect KSU at all this year. Makes zero sense.

You work hard to create a self serving narrative.

Well, or one that lost in the first round to the Anteaters.

So, the media would push a narrative of its choosing? Who da’ thunk it?

@approxinfinity ... And Josh Webster transferred. Really interesting.

For Virginia - their 2016 class was 7th nationally, but 2017 was 98th and 2018 63rd.

https://247sports.com/college/virginia/Season/2016-Basketball/Commits/ ↗

https://247sports.com/college/virginia/Season/2017-Basketball/Commits/ ↗

https://247sports.com/college/virginia/Season/2018-Basketball/Commits/ ↗

@tundrahok Ok .. No I would not. Much like I’d take a NC then missing the tourney. I like big banners. In fact, I think losing the streak is a good thing. Too much focus on worrying about it. It’s nice we have the record. Time to focus on more important things.

@BShark Boy that’s the truth.

The missed double dribble was way obvious. I have no idea why the ref on the program said it was a hard call to see. It was right in front of one ref. Horrible no call. Refs get by with this garbage under the “it’s a hard job” umbrella”” they use to make excuses for inexcusable mistakes. That call was easy.

The one on the shot effected the shot because the defender hit him before the shot was out of the hand. Unfortunate was the timing but that gets called all the time

And now, we enter a new dimension to the scandal.

Read the articles.

Thanks to a scum-bag lawyer (Michael Avenatti), we have significant company in this entire sordid affair. Thank you.

But we already knew.

How long would this have been ignored but for the scum-bag lawyer?

Was the Justice department trying to silence Avenatti on behalf of Nike by filing the charges against him (conspiracy alert)? Was Duke ignored purposefully despite the fact that Zion was the most obvious likely violator? And, of course, now we hear about it -- after Duke's season is over.

Now, did K know? I want that answered.

Self has flat out denied he knew of any improper benefits provided by any third party to any recruit.

Will K make a full denial?

As I've said, if the Justice department is serious, they should indict players, coaches, and the parents/guardians. It's the same conspiracy.

I think it's all a ridiculous use of federal resources. But when we're in the muck, the more the merrier.

https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2019/04/michael-avenatti-duke-mens-basketball-zion-williamson-nike-twitter-paid-mother ↗

https://sports.yahoo.com/michael-avenatti-releases-documents-alleging-nike-paid-families-of-top-college-basketball-recruits-172552969.html ↗

@BShark Getting a top recruit is huge right now, while we languish in NCAA/Adidas/Self-created limbo.

@Crimsonorblue22 Thanks for the link. Great article.

@tundrahok SDS did make us a FF team. Without him though this mess we’re in may not be an issue. I wish we could wind the clock back give back Preston and SDS, and take our chances given our current predicament.

And we can’t make the vacating issue go away by just not wanting to talk about it. Be ready. I will be shocked if we’re not made an example of.

D for DISASTER. Exactly. The horrible lows - SDS, Preston, Moore outweigh the high (Dedric) by a good bit. KJ and Garett would get a C and B- respectively in my book.

@approxinfinity Diallo was a bit the type of step out big that is now the rage. Not to three range but he could hit the 15 footer. LL was a serviceable sloth. On a KU roster with LL and Traylor is not a place any big would want to be ... at least a few years ago. I think Self would do it differently now if the same situation presented itself.