@JayHawkFanToo I'm thinking of it only in terms of speed. Hield was(is) not a point guard who could blow by people. Young is. We didn't have anyone who could stay in front of Holder or the ASU guards. Just not sure DG has the straight line or lateral quickness to check Young. HCBS may have to throw one of his junk defenses at OU - e.g., triangle and 2 - for a few minutes here and there to keep him off balance...
DCHawker
4842 posts
@JayHawkFanToo Young is a very different kind of player than Hield. I don't think we have anyone who can check Young - and, who knows, he may end up being better than Hield (way ahead of him comparing when both were frosh). He will get his - will need to make sure Manek and others don't get theirs....
@wrwlumpy Just turned on the game - 72-40 OU less than 2 minutes into the 2nd half - against a decent NW team...
And the game was at Washington. The Zags were certainly not "flummoxed" by the Washington zone - they scored inside, outside - basically at will. Only 8 TOs, dominated the boards, and shot better than 50% from the field. Really showed how porous the interior of the zone was.
@JayHawkFanToo Agree - not close to a lottery pick at this point. Doke still has a lot to work on at this point. Who could he guard in the NBA? Who could he get his own shot against? There are relatively few traditional 5s in the league now, and all are much more skilled. Doke is big and can take up a lot of room, but he isn't quick, doesn't have much elevation, can't pass in or out of the paint, and is a lousy FT shooter. His game has to evolve quite a bit if he wants to sniff the lottery...
@StLJhawk Terrible game for not only Newman, but also Doke. Graham and Vick have more than carried us so far. Not much help anywhere else...
@JayHawkFanToo Apart from using a lot with a parking permit, supposedly Athletic Department policy is that all athletes register cars. So, either Preston did not register it with the Department, or he did and the Department abjectly failed to determine whether it was legit at the time. Either way, it's a problem. And, as others have noted, it doesn't take a week to figure who owns the car and who paid for it. Clearly more going on...
So, perspective. It was a win. And, a win against UK is always welcome. We won ugly, which always appeals to HCBS. We won when we couldn't hit the broad side of the barn. We won with a very short bench.
On the other hand, we were playing a team that started 5 freshmen - plus next two top minutes guys were a frosh and sophomore. A team that struggled to win in its first two games, including barely escaping at home (against an admittedly really solid Vermont team. A team that doesn't really have a quality point guard and that doesn't shoot well from outside.
Others may have a different point of view, but I don't think anyone played particularly well for the Hawks and a couple of the guys had really bad games. Looking at the big picture, what was most distressing was the seeming absence of veteran leadership - way too many longgg contested and quick 3 pointers and way too many one one or one on three drives. A number of comments that most of the 3s were open shots - well, if you define a quick trigger from 23 feet with the defender a couple of feet in front of you, then I guess that's an open shoot. Newman's 3 at the end was open and were a couple from the wing, but there weren't many others that were actually open from 20 feet and squared up resulting from quick passing around the perimeter or kicking out on drives.
As to each of our guys:
Doke deserves credit for hanging in there for 34 minutes while gassed and not fouling out. 5 dunks which were the official shot attempts. But, UK missed 32 shots - how many did Doke snare - 3! He's by far the biggest guy out there and that's not going to get it done. As others noted, he's not well positioned for many rebounds and he doesn't use his body or arms well. Hopefully, he will learn, because there's no reason that he shouldn't be in double digit rebounds most games (as LL was often last year).
Graham - really bad game overall and it goes beyond not making shots. Too many of them were bad shots and not within the flow of the offense. Several bad, lazy turnovers. His inability to penetrate and create his own shot resulted in a shot clock violation at crucial point down the stretch. We need better from a player of the year candidate.
Newman - made the critical 3 at the end and two clutch FTs, and rebounded well, but other than that....Shot selection was awful - one on a bunch types of drives and quick 3s.
Svi - led in scoring, but it definitely wasn't efficient. 3-10 from deep. Of his other four buckets, he clearly walked on the breakaway pass from Vick and a couple of his "floaters" kind of bricked in. And, for the second tallest guy out there for us, just 3 RBs. Not a bad game, but not a particularly good one.
Vick - the most solid overall, but didn't shoot well and missed a wide-open layup. Would have to look at the game again to better understand what was happening on the defensive end - supposedly our best defender, but Knox lit him up.
Garrett - only 19 minutes - nothing particularly remarkable, good or bad.
Other than Dokes' official 5-5 from the field, the rest of the guys were 19-63. Less than 30% from field and 3 point line. I don't care how long and athletic UK is, that's not going to get it done against most teams. A win is a win, but it would be great to see some actual execution of the offense down the road......
@JayHawkFanToo Not sure I would shout from the mountaintop about that 15-3 record. Other than us beating UK, there isn't a single quality win among the bunch - not sure if any will be top RPI 100 wins. Against Power 5 opponents, the conference is 1-2. Other than ISU's loss to Milwaukee, about the best that can be said is that the conference has avoided any really bad losses so far.
That's where we miss Frank - Graham doesn't have the same ability to drive and get his own shot off. End of possession plays will be an issue...
Atrocious shooting - outside of the big guys 5 dunks, we're 18 of 59 from the field...
@HawkChamp Wonder what they've been practicing. A bunch of 23 ft jumpers and out of control drives. Newman has been awful. No one has played well.
@HawkChamp Awful shot selection - esp. Graham and Newman.
@wissox Kind of defeats the purpose of this site to have to sign up for and log into another one...
@jayballer54 Nightmare now is how we are playing...
@KUSTEVE Especially remarkable give that UK alone has 6! in the top 25 and 2 more in the top 100.
@wrwlumpy Agree that is kind of a joke that Jo Jo isn't on the list. I love the more recent guys, but seriously. Jo Jo was a 2-time All American (2nd team) and 3-time All Big 8. And, a higher scoring average. People focus on where players end up on the all-time KU scoring list, but players today play many more games. And, freshman couldn't play once upon a time. Scoring average should be weighted more, not just total points over a career. Would also probably put Bridges and Stallworth ahead of a couple of the more recent guys. I think Stallworth average 25ppg his last year and was B8 POY.
@JayHawkFanToo While I hope he does stay, I would argue that his progression has been very modest - and, disappointing relative to expectations. Shooting from the perimeter was streaky at best and while he is capable of driving and scoring, he did it to infrequently. More problematically, he really didn't contribute much elsewhere. Terrible rebounder for a wing of his size (same issue with Selden last year) and surprisingly few assists for someone who is a good passer and at least decent ball handler. He seemed to defer a lot; maybe that would change with another year, but perhaps not with more alphas on the way?
@mayjay Interesting, but I'm not sure that it is dispositive of much. Since Roy went to UNC and Bill arrived at KU, Roy has had 16 players go in the 1st round of the NBA draft (and 4 of those were inherited) - Bill has had 14 go in the 1st round.
And how many of the UNC 1st rounders have been NBA All-Stars? Exactly zero. How many have been real impact players - Ty Lawson? Maybe Brice Johnson will be. That's it. While Jayhawks in the Self era haven't lit up the NBA, Chalmers, the Morii, McLemore, Wiggins and Embid have had or will have better NBA careers than the UNC guys. And, I think our JJ will have more of an impact than their JJ.
So, while it might well be the case that Roy is able to get more depth of talent at UNC because of a bigger, closer recruiting base, it doesn't appear that he is getting much more if any of the top-tier talent - which makes his 3 titles there all the more remarkable....
@HighEliteMajor Believe it has been a decade since UNC has had a OAD. The latest NC and two title games in a row - this one primarily with juniors and seniors who bought in to the system and came back to give it another shot - and probably marginal NBA talent on the roster, other than Jackson and maybe Bradley.
@drgnslayr Over the arc of history perhaps, but more recent history? Other than Anthony Davis, has there really been an impactful big, let alone 2, among the titleists over the past decade. Dieng and Harrell (the latter 6-7)? Luke friggin' Hancock was actually the MOP for the FF. Bigs don't play a big role in the NBA and seems that they haven't in college in the recent past. Gonzaga is actually a bit of a throwback in that regard...
@BShark I'm not a fan of UNC by any means, but maybe the reason it deflects off Roy there is he has won 2 titles with them and has been to the last two title games - and without obvious OAD talent. Yes Pinson hasn't produced to expectations, but none of their recruits were clear OADs - not sure any were top 10 coming in? I'm also struggling to understand why some of the the 10-30 range recruits seem to be staying at Carolina on a more consistent basis?
Every coach has his unique style, which means plusses and minuses, but one thing I've always liked about Roy (didn't like that he didn't get guys as committed on the defensive end) is that he plays a lot of guys. Luke Maye came up huge for them in 2 tournament games - Luke Maye, really?!
@BeddieKU23 Actually pretty remarkable that UNC will be in back-to-back NC games with so little NBA talent on the roster. Jackson will be a lottery pick, but you are right, I don't think anyone else is has a realistic shot. Veteran team with no OADs. In fact, I think I read that UNC hasn't had a OAD in a decade. Folks have debated ad naseum on the board the merits or lack thereof of going the OAD recruiting strategy, but if UNC does win tomorrow, that will be 2 straight titleists comprised of multi-year players and no OADs. Gonzaga has only one possible OAD and he comes off the bench.
@nuleafjhawk said:
@betterfireE and many people changed their minds after we beat Michigan St by 20 (which NOBODY does) and a very good Purdue team by 32. I refuse to buy into the fact that their guards were that much better than our. All year - from day one - even the east coast media owned up to the fact that KANSAS had the best backcourt in the country. But half of it didn't show up Saturday.
Keep in mind this is not a personal attack on him - I love him, hope he stays next year - but for whatever reason he did not show up Saturday night and it cost us a trip to Phoenix.
I agree - and there seems to be some post-hoc rationalization re talent level and athleticism - that Oregon was superior on both fronts. Make no mistake about it - Oregon is a really good team and was a FF favorite at the beginning of the year - got dropped at least a seed because Boucher got hurt at the end of the year (the guy who was supposedly more of a rim protector than Bell).
But let's be real - Oregon beat exactly no one of note during the non-conference schedule - they got spanked by Baylor and lost to Georgetown (?!). In conference they beat the lower tier teams and split with UCLA and Arizona.
In their first 3 tournament games, they beat Iona by 16 and squeaked by URI and Michigan - by 3 and 1 points, respectively. Their first 3 opponents all scored more points that we did - apparently they did not have quite the same issues with Oregon's length and athleticism. Oregon's DER was in the 20s, although dropped to 19 after the win against us, so they were solid, but not one of elite defensive teams - even with Boucher.
The thing that is sticking in my craw is that we clearly got taken out of our offense - the guys admitted that they struggled with the match-up zone. As a result, we scored the fewest points we have all season. Last year at the same time, Villanova took us out of our offense and we scored 59 points.
I'm not sure why in seemingly too many instances in the tournament over the years (I'm thinking VCU, Davidson (even though we won) and UCLA, among others) that our opponents seem to be successful in taking us out of our offense? Shouldn't we be the team doing that to them?
Oregon is a really good team and shot the ball well and played well in a hostile environment, so hats off to them. But, I don't accept that they were more talented across the line-up (although it may turn out that they have more successful NBA players; remains to be seen) and there is a reason we were favored by 6.5 points going in. Posts above show recap who've we lost to as a higher seed in the tournament (esp. in the Elite Eight) and I would argue that UCLA was probably the only team in all of those who actually had more talent on the floor.
What is most frustrating is a seeming pattern of very sub par performances on the offensive end during the tournament. Maybe it is just luck or one of those things....
This was another (very) disappointing loss, and emotions are raw in the moment, both for the players and the fans. But I don't why everything has to be black and white - about the season, about Self, and about our tournament performance.
By all measures except one - a big one admittedly - this was a very successful season - 30+ wins, 13th consecutive conference crown - NPOY - Self showing more adaptability with his players than ever before, with entertaining results - a team with more grit and determination perhaps than many other recent Jayhawk teams - beat UK and Duke - epic comeback against WVU. Frank will go down as one of the all time greats at KU. JJ was the best OAD we've had - at least in terms of his play at KU. A lot to be grateful for and appreciative of with this team.
But that shouldn't preclude a thoughtful discussion of the whys and wherefores of falling short again with regard to the goal each and every year at KU (yes we are blessed and cursed by high expectations) - a national championship or at least a Final Four appearance.
The numbers are what they are. Self's 2-7 record in E8 games is what most folks are pointing the finger at. The one that really gets me is that we've had 8 #1 seeds during the Self era and have reached the FF only once during that time ('08). I haven't gone back and checked this, but I think we have only beaten a higher seed team once during the Self era?
The bottom line is that we've consistently fallen short of playing to our expected seed over a long period of time during the tournament. That is a fact. The question is why? Luck? That may have something to do with, but again, it's not a one, two or three time thing. Have we (and by extension the B12) been seeded higher than we should have? Probably yes to a degree, but that should actually make EASIER to advance further. And, advanced metrics have largely supported KUs seed most years - at least within a seed line.
Is something else going on? Is coaching an aspect - in terms of preparation, in-game adjustments, and the dreaded "tightness" factor? Perhaps it is inherently unknowable - certainly isn't provable. By I'm one that has always had the feeling that Self does tighten up during the tournament and it is something could well be felt by and impact the players. It is most manifested in his substitution patters (or lack thereof) during the tournament. That our guys played not to lose, rather than playing to win.
I thought this year was different - that this team had a different character and swagger. But, after yesterday's game, I don't know what to think. Oregon struggled to put away URI and Michigan - could easily have lost either game. Didn't really dominate Iona in the first round. Yet all 3 of those teams scored more points against Oregon than we did. We had our worst shooting %s and lowest point total of the year (eerily reminiscent of last year and other E8 results).
It took us forever to figure out their match-up on zone and adapt. We kept taking shots from the perimeter - some way too quickly - and didn't drive the ball nearly enough (Frank did for a awhile, with good results). Perhaps we were cowed by Bell? Clearly having JJ on the bench hurt and while we were only down 1 when he came back in, he probably was playing less aggressively than he otherwise would have (and did in the second half).
How much of the game yesterday was on Self and how much of the KU performance in the tournament over the past decade and a half is on Self? I think some of it has to be - he is the one constant. Having said that, he is without question one of the small handful of best college coaches, a Hall of Famer, and I would still rather have Self than any other coach in the game - yes. But that doesn't mean he is or should be immune from a critical assessment of why we continue to fall short of ours and his expectations.....
@HighEliteMajor said:
For anyone that thinks this game was a Bill Self loss, you need to rethink it a bit.
This isn't Stanford or Villanova.
This loss was about a terrific turnaround after half time on the defensive end, but our inability to execute offensively.
I was continually amazed at the quality of shots and looks we had in the second half. The game was right there for the taking.
There were many times over the years when the "failure to execute" was incorrectly blamed. This isn't one of them.
Still Self's best coaching job.
@BigBad is right. Our thin post presence was the undoing tonight. We had no real option there.
Lots of things went wrong tonight. One of them was not Bill Self. He was calm and cool. And his team came out fired up after half, and everything went right except the ball going in the hoop.
Again, this is much, much different than some of the NCAA tourney losses we've seen.
Great season.
I agree it isn't Stanford - although I might disagree a bit that there isn't at least some similarity to Villanova - namely that we just couldn't score - and that a key player just came up empty at a critical time.
While I also agree that Self did a good job with this team - adapting to the personnel rather than rigidly adhering to his system when he clearly didn't have the right personnel to execute it, there is something going on that I can't pinpoint. At the end of the day, the guy at the top has to be accountable for coming up short of expectations in the tournament. I think we've only finished above our expected result based on seed once during the Self era - in 2012.
There is at least some disconnect between regular season and postseason results. There is just too long a track record now to conclude otherwise. 13th straight conference title, 31 wins, probable NPOY - lots to be thankful for. But falling short of the FF yet again - as a number 1 seed - after dominating the first 3 games - in KC. Extraordinarily disappointing...
Two huge swings - at the end of the first half and not snaring the defensive rebound with a minute and a half to go when we had a chance to cut it to 5 or 4 and they hit a 3 to push it back to 9.
But, what is it about us that we seem to have all too many games like this - where we can't make anything???? Going back to the Ariz game in 97 and the Syracuse game, among many others. Where otherwise good players just come up completely empty - Ellis last year and DG this year???
Is it something in the water??? I'm at a loss...
Struggling to understand how Oregon can barely beat Michigan and then dominate us in KC?? I guess 5-25 from 3 will do it...
It's doable - we've gotten stops - just need to make shots!!!
They are shooting 53% from the field, 48% from 3 and out rebounding and out blocking us...
22% from 3 - ain't going to get it done against a good team....
7 points total between JJ and DG....
Jesus...
@autohawk Missing 3 of last 4 FTs not helping...
In the few minutes I've watched, they are definitely winning the 50-50 balls at HCBS would say. Seems they want it more???? BIFM has over half our points??? Is anyone else showing up??? Zero for JJ? LL looks like he is being dominated by Bell???
How do we give up 60% FG for the game???
@wissox Maybe I should - it is over. is this party over? Not scoring and giving up a lot of points?
I've had to host a birthday dinner for my daughter in Dallas - WTF is going on here??????
@HawkChamp said:
@Hawk8086 well, the big 12 did have 3 teams in the sweet sixteen. ACC only had one.
Not sure that is much to crow about. 3 other conferences also had 3 teams in the Sweet Sixteen. The SEC could have 3 in the Elite 8. The P12 or SEC will have at least 2. If FL beats Wisconsin, the SEC will be guaranteed at least 1 FF team. The B12 has played exactly to seed thus far - and for that to continue, KU has to beat Oregon. This is the 3rd or 4th year in a row that Baylor has lost to a lower seeded team - at least it wasn't a double digit seed. When was the last time a B12 team beat a higher seed? I don't know which is why I'm asking, but I don't recall one in the recent future - although I know that B12 teams have had numerous losses to lower seeded teams.
@mayjay said:
@DCHawker I told you all yesterday, maybe they should get Ewing! In the recruiting thread:
I wonder if Patrick Ewing would consider it to resurrect his alma mater. Has been an NBA asst for years. I could see that being a huge recruiting attraction to potential OADs. Have no idea how much of a winner as a college coach he would be, but some OADs don’t care, they just want contacts and visibility (Simmons, anyone?).
Apparently, someone is thinking about it:
What would you think of that as an alum?
Yes, have seen those reports - along with a few other names bandied about. I guess Ewing would be "big" hire, but more than a little risky. He has no head coaching experience and no college experience. Maybe the name alone would help interest recruits, but I'm not sure how much connection he has to 18 year olds - let alone the ability to do the grind with the kids and the families. As a GU alum (grad school), I would much prefer going after a young coach who has a demonstrated track record of (re)building a program at one of the mid-majors, or even lower. One of the names mentioned was Ed Cooley, the URI coach - which i totally don't get. A solid coach with a team that is very competitive in the BE, but that's it. Tommy Amaker has also been mentioned in a few reports, but the same thing - did okay with Seton Hall and Michigan and fine with Harvard, but he's had his chances and has not delivered the kind of success the Hoyas are yearning looking for (perhaps never to be recaptured). Ewing might be a more interesting roll of the dice, but it would be a crapshoot - just hope it wouldn't come up craps and you have another icon who is tough to move on from if necessary.
@BShark Good info - not a great shooting team. Does that mean you would prefer to see them rather than UCLA or UNC?
@jaybate-1.0 Agree with your assessment. UCLA could go off, but neither they nor anyone else remaining can match our combination of speed, athleticism and shooting - except for UK. Hate to say it, but I was impressed by the way the ground out the win against WSU. I really expected the Shockers to win that game. And they did without a huge contribution from Monk, who is the one guy who can really go off. Fox's speed and Bam's athleticism will be tough to deal with. If UCLA doesn't take them down, I would happy to have UNC do it. I think that would be good match-up for us - really don't see that UNC has anything over us at any position. Our JJ is better than their JJ and Berry can't light a candle to either BIFM or DG. Meeks and their other front court guys just aren't that good.
But, first things first - let's take care of business tomorrow....
@Hawk8086 said:
I was thinking that Graham needs to save some of those makes for tomorrow.
I would rather he save them for Saturday....
I don't think we've had a TO this half and we're shooting over 60% - pretty darn impressive...
If we make some FTs down the stretch, we'll hit the century mark - against a real team...
I don't think Haas has scored this half...
5 players in double figures. When we spread it around, there aren't many teams that can keep up with us...