Remarkable that we have the lead. They may miss shots, but we aren't doing much to contest them - getting into the paint ridiculously easily.
DCHawker
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@jaybate-1.0 Timing.... Still 1-6 is even lower % than at Baylor. But, the real problem is that we can't stop anybody these days. Opponents are lighting it up against us the last few games...
Other than Doke, we are 1-10; 0-5 from 3. As many TOs as buckets. Getting outrebounded.
@Hawk8086 Agreed - same Point that I was making in another thread - reason that our 3pt% has come down (plummeted) is that the shots we are taking are forced and contested. Virtually no rapid ball movement around the perimeter, skip passes or penetration and kick-out to get really open looks...
@jaybate-1.0 Those shooting percentages are obviously strongly correlated to winning and losing, but that is not the same thing as causation.
Did KU shoot much worse than usual simply because it was an "off night"? At least in part, that may be the case. But, anecdotally, and these were comments I was making during the game, I thought a lot of the shots from deep were rushed or contested - many weren't the wide open looks we were getting earlier in the year as a result of really good ball movement and guys squaring up and stepping into shots in rhythm.
Did Baylor shoot much better than its average simply because it was one of those nights. And, maybe - certainly you wouldn't expect Lecomte to make 2 straight from 23 feet. On the other hand, they had a lot of wide open looks because we weren't rotating quickly, fighting through screens, or closing out well. The sad fact is that we gave up 50 points in the second half to a team that is anything but an offensive powerhouse.
@HighEliteMajor Good stuff. So, you noted that we have 8 players with top 67 rankings coming out of HS - actually, it's 9 with de Sousa. Not only is that far and away more talent than any other B12 team, I would guess (haven't checked) that is more than any other team in the country not named Duke or Kentucky. That's 9 guys that were at least HS or international studs that should make for a deep and talented roster. 8 of the 9 have had double digit scoring games in D-1. Yeah, we don't have a true back-up point guard, but we didn't with EJ either. The combo of Malik, Svi and Garrett should be able to run the offense for a couple of possessions each half to give DG a 2 minute blow before a time out (should be doing that if for no other reason that DG will get into foul trouble in some critical game).
Maybe it's not the right mix of guys - e.g., not a single one with a knack (kind way of putting failure of effort and boxing out) for rebounding (boy, we could only hope one of these guys was a Kevin Young type), including Doke. None that can really create their own shot consistently. None that can finish well at the rim.
Or, maybe it is chemistry or cancer. I don't know, but I am tired of the undermanned excuse/cop-out. Villanova beat us and won a NC with 7-1/2 guys and one serviceable big.
@jaybate-1.0 Curious how you see that playing out? We go 5-1 and TTU 4-2; 4-2 and 3-3? It's not just that we are a game behind and they beat us at AFH. They appear to be only team in the conference that is playing better as time goes on - 6 straight wins (3 on the road, one of those out of conference). Definitely doesn't apply to us...
@justanotherfan So, living on the East Coast, I see UVA a fair amount. They definitely play defense on every possession. Teams struggle mightily to score against them. They aren't really a deep team - 8 guys play double digit minutes. Cincinnati and TTU each have 10 guys that play double digit minutes, so they have fresh legs. Some of it is effort/desire, some of it is coaching system and technique and some of it is coaching choices. Self chooses to not play with depth. Again, maybe it's an attitude thing we don't know about, but does anyone really believe that the 9th and 10th guys on the Cincy and Tech rosters are better basketball players than Cunliffe? A guy that started as a freshmen at a D-1 school. Did things fall apart when Clay Young had to play a few minutes earlier in the year? At least he knows what's happening on the court, in stark contrast to Silvio.
@Crimsonorblue22 I don't know if it is chemistry problems - could well be- but there is no question that they aren't playing like they did earlier in the year. Sure, the competition is tougher, but it's been a long time since we've seen the quick, sharp passes around the perimeter, skip passes, or drives and kick-outs leading to wide open 3s on the 3pt line. We took 30+ shots from 3 today and most of them seemed quick, deep or contested (in contrast to some of the wide open looks Baylor got).
@REHawk A month long "unlucky" streak??? Not sure how you think luck factors in? As HEM notes, he's averaged just 7ppg over the last 9 games. And, he hasn't really been contributing much elsewhere. It does raise the question again re Cunliffe. You say he isn't ready or competent. He has some size and athleticism. He averaged 10ppg at ASU as a freshmen. He's been in our system for a year+. He's already demonstrated he can play at the D-1 level. We recruited him.
I think it may be an attitude problem or something about his game that sticks in Self's craw. He has shown a quick trigger and Self has yanked him immediately after quick shots or after mistakes. Clearly has a very short or no leash. But, given Vick's disappearing act, I would think it worth a shot to give Cunliffe some court time, if just to send the signal that if one of the erstwhile starters doesn't have their head in the game, they can expect bench time...
@jaybate-1.0 Another bullet point noted by Matt Norlander is his unfortunately spot on analysis on CBS Sports of this group of Jayhawks - we allowed OSU to grab 47% of their misses. OSU is not a big team. That's just effort and technique (coaching) - or lack thereof. The continued failure of this team to be able to box out is particularly frustrating - it's just not that hard. We managed to make a mediocre team look like world beaters - of course, the same was true in losses to ASU and Washington.
@BShark Good info. So not even close to the pedigree (HS at least) of KU - or probably most other Power 5 schools. So, Weber is a lousy D1 recruiter. But maybe he is a pretty good prep and game coach to be able to coax the record he has given a paucity of talent???
@JayHawkFanToo I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with? I agree that league rivalry games will tend to be tighter, not so much because teams "get up" for KU (or UK), but because of familiarity - they know our schemes so well and can better disrupt offensive sets.
The issue is how B12 teams perform against better teams when they don't know their tendencies. Tennessee is a better team than ISU this year. But to lose by 20+ at home, esp. after being up by 8 early in the game?
But it goes beyond ISU yesterday. The fact is the B12's wins all came against teams in the bottom half of the oft derided SEC (not a one with a winning record in the conference). We couldn't get a win against any of the top half, and didn't have to play Auburn, which leads the conference now.
Again, I hope I'm wrong, but I fear this signals another crash and burn by the conference in the tournament. Good coaches across the conference, but simply not enough depth of talent to succeed against the top half of at least the ACC teams, and perhaps the SEC, P12 (we lost to 2 mid-tier P12 teams), BE and B10.
How many wins does the B12 have against teams that have any realistic shot at the FF (even the E8) - I would say just 2 - UVA and UK. Until conference teams regularly schedule and demonstrate they can win regularly against the best teams from the other power conferences, I expect it will be rinse and repeat....
@BShark @JayHawkFanToo ISU and Baylor losses not unexpected - they lost to 2 of the better teams in the SEC. But, when have we won by more than 20 at Hilton?
Did the B12 really get any good wins out of this? KSU had to come back to edge an average UGA team at home. KU should have won at AFH. TX beat a second tier at best team at home. TTU was a solid win against a decent SC team, but that was still #14 against unranked. 2 of the best 4 B12 teams lost, one on the road the other at home.
The SEC is better and deeper than in year's past, but still....
@truehawk93 OSU lost and WVU may go down. And, it's not just that the B12 may go 4-6 against the SEC (at best 5-5) - it's arguably worse than that. ISU and Baylor got absolutely spanked. TCU lost to a lousy Vandy team. OU lost to an average Alabama team. Not a single B12 win was a dominant - TX and KU the biggest margins.
The question is what does this augur for the tournament? I know there is a lot of passionate debate about this, but this notion that the B12 is the best conference (by Kenpom or RPI) is flawed - the B12 is the most balanced conference, and there are no bad teams (ISU on the brink). And, the B12 teams had a great non-conference record, but it was primarily a function of avoiding any bad losses and picking up a lot of solid wins.
The problem is that year in and year out, the B12 teams do not consistently play and beat the better teams from the power 5 conferences. This year was no exception (the exception being WVU's win over UVA (their only loss)).
I very much hope I'm wrong, but my fear (and prediction) is that yet again the B12 teams will significantly underperform in the tournament (absolutely and relative to seedings). Happy to eat crow if that doesn't turn out to be the case....
@DanR Fair enough. Couldn't he have seen that at any point up and until this game. If not, how about the first time they poked Doke? The second time? The third time? What, not even after the fifth time?
Stipulated that we need Doke on the floor as much of the game as possible. But in this game, Mitch had about the same slash line in 5 fewer minutes. More importantly, he is 14-17 from the FT line this year. I get you want to have your best players on the floor. But, in obvious fouling situations, a 40% FT shooter is not one of your best players.
@chriz I simply don't get the "vote of confidence" point. Doke not making FTs is NOT for lack of confidence. It is that he has probably the worst FT shooting "technique" of any college or pro player I've ever seen. Definitely worse than Shaq. He can have all the confidence in the world - he ain't making more than 50% of his attempts shooting them the way he does...
@HawkChamp I don't know if choke is the word, but if HCBS gets credit for coaching genius for the other close wins, this loss is on him. Simply can't have Doke in at the end of close games. 6 straight missed FTs and not one was close. Plus, the offensive after we were down 2 had Doke in the corner - what the f*** is the point of that - no reason to have him in the game if they can defend 5 on 4. The last 4 minutes, we didn't come close to have a good offensive possession - only score was a put back. Really solid 35+ minutes just wasted in the last 4-5 minutes....
@JayHawkFanToo ASU wasn't particularly good a year ago, but he started and averaged 25mpg/10ppg/5rbg as a freshman - that's pretty decent production for a frosh at a Power 5 conference school. Not sure why is his mind it wouldn't have been realistic to think he would start as a sophomore, or at least getting meaningful game time. I really, really doubt he would have transferred if he had any inkling that it would mostly be DNP - Coach's Decision. What is befuddling to me - acknowledging that I don't see him in practice every day - is that a guy who scored in double digits in games against UNLV and Kentucky (albeit not efficiently) and seems to have some athleticism couldn't be giving us some decent minutes off the bench, even if just a couple of minutes breather, or when one of the other 5 perimeter guys gets a couple of quick fouls or clearly doesn't have their head in the game...
@CRH107 Could say the same about 'Ol Roy - UNC has same number of recruits, but 2 titles over that span. Think UConn has only 2 listed recruits, also with 2 titles. Talent matters, but it's not all that matters...
Quick post game thought is the same as when I have time to reflect - this team is damn hard to figure out. Lose to 2 teams that are in the middle of the pack in the P12. Lose by double digits in KC and AFH. All 4 B12 wins at AFH by single digits, mostly against the second tier teams in the conference - But, win first the first 3 B12 games on the road, including in Morgantown, which more talented teams haven't been able to do. Absolutely no consistency in individual performances - Vick great early, but has disappeared recently. Newman a complete non-factor through most of the early part of the season, but 20+ in 2 recent games. Showing grit in coming back in Morgantown and tonight, but looking awful in getting way behind or giving up big leads at home. My head spins every time I watch these guys....
@BShark A lucky 4 made - those are some ugly looking FT attempts...
@Crimsonorblue22 Way???
@Crimsonorblue22 think they called it on Vick?
@BShark Seems like Allen FH is the Achilles heal this year for some reason...
@BShark Their put backs and our missed lay-ups are why this is still a game. And how can Doke only have 2 rebounds??!! All the other starters have more...
@RockChalkinTexas Looking at those stats, you would think we would be blowing them out...
Svi is very active and has the dunk and a couple of 3s, but he missed another dunk and three lay-ups. If he really learns how to finish, he could turn out to be a decent player... ;)
@BShark Speaking of - stat just went across the screen of which I wasn't aware - TTU has only one B12 road win over the past 2 years - yep, this year at AFH...
@drgnslayr Interested in your comment that Cunliffe can't handle the pace of play. It's not like this is a guy coming straight from high school, like Silvio. He was a starter as a freshman for a Power 5 school last year - well for the first half of the year. I would have thought he would have been fully acclimated to the pace of play with that experience under his belt. Just thinking that it is something else that HCBS doesn't like about his game - enough so that he isn't willing to give the other guards more of a breather by bringing Sam in for a couple of minutes each half or if one picks up 2 early fouls...
Well, we out rebounded them... ;)
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@Kcmatt7 We're getting out F***ing butts kicked. Like we've never seen pressure before. We have seniors that have lost 3 straight times and it appears that no lessons have been learned...
@Crimsonorblue22 Uh, no....
@JayHawkFanToo He and Newman have been mostly no shows. Newman made the 3 in the first minute and nothing since.
@BShark Stretches where they look just awful on offense. Have squandered a 9 point first half lead and 11 point second half lead. KSU is getting better looks...
@Crimsonorblue22 As announcers said, he is a tough match-up for us. Can post low and step out and hit the 3.
@Bosthawk HEM may have done so, as well, but below is what I had posted before the tourney last year about defensive metrics applicable to last year's team and it's historical context in terms of previous NC rankings:
To answer your question, is this the worst defensive team under Self, the answer is YES, at least as measured by KenPom defensive efficiency ratings - and it’s not really close. In 10 of the last 12 years prior to this one, KU has had a top 10 ranked defense; 6 times in the top 5. The two lowest ranked years were '09 at #12 and '14 at 22. Right now we’re ranked 30th in DER. As I’ve pointed out elsewhere, no team has ever won a national championship with that low a defensive ranking. Now, those rankings are post tournament, so perhaps we will tighten up on the defensive end - although we’ve actually regressed on the metrics over the past few games.
@mayjay The only point with re to De Sousa is that same that HCBS noted - it's much more difficult to figure out academic clearance and amateur status in situations like his - not in any way suggesting that he has academic or character issues...
I don't get the ragging on the NCAA - this is on KU. There has been a pattern over the past few years of recruiting and giving scholies to guys that have academic or character issues - Alexander, Diallo, Preston, De Sousa, the head cases... Recruiting guys from overseas, esp. certain countries, is going to present clearance issues - you have to know that going in and hopefully have done some diligence. And, it's not on the NCAA that Preston was driving a car of apparently uncertain or questionable provenance. And, our compliance department apparently took 2 months before we sent anything to the NCAA. Why that wasn't vetted earlier is beyond me.
I know I'm old school, but I yearn for the Collisons, Simiens, Vaughns and Hinrichs - high caliber and high character guys....
@big12basketblog Great stuff, as always. I wish our guys would watch a few of the TTU clips - very good positioning and balance on defense. Contrast those you show attacking Svi and Cunliffe. Where I might disagree with you somewhat is pinning it on those guys. Neither keep their man from getting by them. The bigger problem IMO is that there is no help defense or rim protection and footwork and balance for almost all our guys is awful. Note particularly Vick in the second to last clip. It's almost like they are playing 5 on 4.
@JayHawkFanToo Actually it sounds a lot more like a non-admission admission....
@wissox As I noted elsewhere, esp. given that he has already demonstrated that he is at least a capable D-1 player. In his half year with ASU last year, while he wasn't particularly efficient, he did start as a freshman and averaged nearly 10ppg and 5rpg in 25mpg.
@DanR Ifs and buts... Can't speak for others, but the point that I have made over that time frame (and I think a few others, as well) was the HCBS could be inflexible and and insisted on running the high-low even when teams were scheming against it. That is, giving good shooters the green light to shoot open, uncontested 3s when the defense was clogging the paint, rather than trying to force entry passes into the post often leading to TOs. He has adapted, but that doesn't mean going completely the other direction. Now, if opponents are crowding the 3 pt line, then we need to get it into Doke or our perimeter guys need to go strong to the rim or drop it off to someone slashing to the bucket from the weak side.
@AsadZ Fair observation on the first point, although that begs the question as to whether is makes sense to play up tempo if you don't have the bodies to sustain it? And, wouldn't that argue for more playing time for Cunliffe? And, we got whipped by an ASU team at AFH that is just as perimeter oriented and short-benched as we are - their guards consistently blew by ours. And, their top 2 scorers average 35mpg.
And, interesting question. Everyone is a big fan of Hudy, but it does seem that we that we suffer from more minor+ injuries than many other teams. Really am not competent to judge where there is causation to conditioning program.
@AsadZ Perhaps I'm an outlier with this view, but I think the short bench argument is, to some extent, both and excuse and a choice. Yes, Preston's unavailability means less depth up front. But, lest we forget, we got beat by a team in the E-8 that went on to win the title that had just one real big - Villanova, with Ochefu. They basically played with 7-1/2 guys. The half was a 6-8, 225 lb guy that would spell Ocehefu, but he was just a body - didn't score and didn't rebound much. Would argue that Mitch has much more talent than he did. And, it a choice not to play Cunliffe more. It's not like he hasn't already demonstrated that he is a capable D-1 player. Is the drop-off from to Cunliffe from Newman, Garrett and Svi THAT much? Even if there is a significant drop-off, that's usually true with bench players - the trade-off of giving better players a breather is that they are more effective when they are in there.
I guess my view is that depth isn't really the primary issue - it's that the players we do have just aren't constituted the way that we have come to expect with Jayhawks under Self.
I don't know if this is Self's worst team during his tenure - still have half the season to determine that - and I don't think it is his least talented (by a fair amount) - but I would argue that it is the least Self-like team during his tenure - in terms of style, defensive prowess and general grit and toughness - esp. perplexing given the time that most have spent in his system...
@bmensch1 Alas, I'm not nearly as sanguine about it as you are. Yes, DG eschewed (or had taken away) 3 pointers for the most part and was reasonably effective driving and getting to the FT line - shooting 13 (and making all of them). The other perimeter players - not so much. Vick, Svi, Newman, Garrett and Cunliffe combined for 94 minutes playing time and managed just 3!!!! FT attempts (only making one). As quick as refs are with whistles these days, that's hard to do. Our guys seem allergic to driving to create contact and try to draw fouls (which Frank was a master at)...
@drgnslayr This has become a recurrent theme - and, unfortunately, perhaps the identity of this team. TTU has scored more than 85 only twice this season, against mighty FAU and Savannah St! Even in the TX win, we gave up 85 to them and they have trouble scoring against anyone (only game they scored more was against Northwestern State). Gave up 95 to ASU on at AFU.
No resistance against penetration and no blocking out. Gave up 18 ORBs. TTU missed 38 shots from the floor plus a few missed FTs. Doke garnered just 4 of those missed shots. Fully healthy or not, that isn't acceptable. Whether driving into the paint or positioning for rebounds, it seems like our guys are allergic to contact.
Don't know if that will or can change with the current line-up - perhaps de Sousa or Preston will at least be willing to mix it up, even if they don't really know what they are doing on the floor...
@KUSTEVE Curious why anyone is optimistic that either de Sousa or Preston would be able to contribute much of anything at all at any point this season - given the track record of freshmen in HCBS' system - especially the bigs like Diallo and Alexander??? They couldn't figure it out by the end of the year. Heck, not sure Newman has figured it out yet, and he's been practicing in the system for a year and has a half year playing in it.
Does anyone think they have that much skill or BBIQ to really make a positive contribution on the floor - that is, other than picking up fouls in emergency situations?
@KUSTEVE This debate comes up every year. The B12 is once again ranked by various statistical metrics as the best conference in the country. That, in the past and again is this year, is the product of not having any bad teams (in contrast to every other conference) that drag down rankings and avoiding bad losses. During the non-conference schedule, B12 teams had an outstanding non-conference record - mostly the result of very soft scheduling. Having said that, the entire conference managed to avoid "bad" losses (one ISU loss excepted; and KU losing to UW in KC is probably the "worst" loss of any highly ranked team other than UNC losing to BC). In addition, the B12 teams had a somewhat surprising number of good wins.
IMO, the problem with the B12 year in and year out in the non-conference schedule is that B12 teams don't consistently play the other better teams around the country (KU is typically the exception, although not this year, along with Texas). In the Big Dance, you have to beat the best teams in the country. The B12 as a whole doesn't consistently challenge itself against the best competition and show that it can win those games.
This year is no exception - during the non-conference schedule, I believe that the entire conference picked up only 4 wins against the top 25 or so teams in the poll and power rankings - WSU, Virginia, Kentucky and FSU (barely). Villanova and Xavier have that many by themselves. Until the B12 teams regularly challenge themselves against the best competition - and demonstrate they can win those games more often than not - I expect they will continue to underwhelm in the NCAA tournament....