Elephant in the room -- decision not to foul, up three, when the clock got under 7 seconds. You know, I can assure that this approach will cost us an exit from the NCAA tourney (right, it did, see 2013).
HighEliteMajor
5416 posts
@Woodrow Until he hits 33% of his threes and isn't so bad from three that he turns down open looks, that lightning rod will always be there. The reality is that he looks much better when we're 4/1 instead of 3/2. If we have an additional shooter on the floor from outside, it seems that his weakness there is less of a big deal. 3/2 it's a big deal. At least that how it looks to me. Or heck, when Dotson and Doke combine for 60 and Garrett gets to the rack.
jayballer73 said:
Holy Crap guys , what a ball game. - -yes Dayton does belong in the top 25 - -that is a hell of a team mercy what 16 three's ? - - -
I couldn't be prouder of our guys -- crazy ball and Doke found his stroke from the free throw line? - -absolute man in todays game. - -We play like that through the year - -we gonna be really hard to beat
We down by 8 with like 6 1/2 minutes. - -they didn't panic - -just kept working - -what a hell of a game to watch.
Tell you someone else that played really well , - -Marcus - -his usual great defense and adding some scoring - -I'll take that for sure. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
That game felt like a lifetime. I shall rest in peace.
No doubt. Major game from Mr. Garrett. Big time. Just a terrific effort all the way around.
approxinfinity said:
Self said the 2 bigs O is not very good and not long for this world. We'll see.
I think it would be just fine with Silvio at the four. Better passer and driver; quicker; good with the ball.
Folks always get a little too giddy about mid-majors that look good.
While Dave played well, it is incredibly clear that some of our observations are correct -- and Bilas said it best -- McCormack and Doke "don't mesh well" on the court together. And Silvo basically being benched is just astonishing to me. I really wonder what is going on there.
Dave is a good player. Doke is a good player. But Dave is not a good enough high post player to make the high/low work. He's really a poor passer. He should NEVER shoot that 17 footer. That's the range of shots that in the day of the three pointer are the worst shots to take. The defense should invite that shot every possession.
Both Dave and Doke look really nice on the block. I don't think this is going to work though, with the long term goal being a national championship.
This will be something to monitor. Maybe the biggest thing.
And Moss needs to just square up and stop drifting. He did that on a few misses.
I've been way on record about how I think about Agbaji. Just play him, give it time. He was not a top 50 guy, but will play into that.
@Crimsonorblue22 @Marco I like both of your lineups, though a touch early to start Braun I think. He may never be a starter which is ok. Neither of you (interestingly) mentioned McCormack. I like him, but just not with another big.
@Marco I do think Cronin is a good fit. Boring basketball is right. Just north of UVA. But I think he's a winner. Will be interesting to see where that sits two years from now. And man, Bill Walton is a guy that is fun to listen to ... for about 5 minutes. I don't dislike the guy but I don't like that messing up my hoops.
@drgnslayr I think this whole season will be a great test for Dotson. Can he be the leader? Really looking forward to this tourney.
Just a way of saying reverting to what is one’s typical manner of operation.
How about the "classic quick hook" then -- for simply shooting an ill advised three? I watched in 2016-17 when we gunned some really bad threes. Self just sat there. That's the season it died, in my opinion. In prior seasons, he'd do the flopping around thing, face turning red, head ready to explode. But sure, he'll still go back to momma here and there. When he bought into the three, I think he really bought in.
But I've said a number times here my all-time favorite was the Anrio Adams hook. Adams in. Ball thrown to Adams, one or two bounces, off his foot, out of bounds, back to the bench -- 2.3 seconds. Never to be seen again. A thing of (perverse) beauty.
dylans said:
@mayjay Print journalism is dying in favor of digital. Sucks in my humble opinion. In some ways it’s like going back to the Stone Age - no recorded history. When digital articles go away there’s no bringing them back. Also many (most?) in their haste to stay current don’t bother archiving the old info just updating and that old info and the snapshot in time it provided is gone. Poof
I just saw this post. Absolutely agree. I started reading the sports page every morning when I was five years old. Boxscores where heaven -- loved MLB and NBA boxes. Nothing like it. I gave up the paper six months ago because it was a joke. Hardly anything in print and "see online edition" all the time. Can't stand looking at my phone or a computer to read a newpaper.
Something to be said for printed papers and microfishe. Sometimes perfection precedes progress.
@BShark Man, me too. His bench demeanor, everything in that regard, has appeared to reach a near perfect spot.
Self about Agbaji - “The biggest thing is he just needs to go out and be Ochai,” Self said. “Just play with a free mind and have fun and not worry about consequences or what happens. Just go out and play. And enjoy it.”
The quick hook is truly dead. But I love it when Bill Self’s words so clearly support a position debated multiple years ago.
@Marco Well maybe since he'll be a multi-millionaire this time next year, we can direct our concern to folks that really need it. "lol"
@Marco So help me, how is this a "double-standard"? And so you know, the money isn't going to the NCAA. It goes to a charity of Wiseman's choice by the way. The NCAA doesn't need his $11,000.
@mayjay Not defending the NCAA time frames here fully, but if you're going to posture that deciding the Wiseman issue vs. the KU/Adidas stuff was even near the same level of complexity, then I'm not sure really what to say there -- if that's what the "cud" comment means. Of course, we really didn't fully cooperate. We weren't fully "transparent." We know that. There was a federal trial. There was waiting for that to conclude. On other items, I can't quite figure it out. This one, I'm more understanding.
@FarmerJayhawk Again, I don't think our NCAA venom is entirely well placed. The suspension for Wiseman was relatively predictable. See Bilas' comments before the suspension was released. We've seen guys get suspensions based on the improper benefits, and that it's based on the amount received. The NCAA always requires payback. And if you review the terms, it's very flexible, almost permitting him to skate on some of it.
@ajvan The reason, I think, is because of the facts with Wiseman were well developed and known. When there is more info to be added, investigated, etc., that takes more time. Silvio situation was less than clear with all the denials and b.s. out there. Same with Preston. Wiseman, there were no real denials of what took place if I understood it right. The issue was just what would occur because of it. But I'm not defending the time delays.
However, the ridiculous delays we saw with the NCAA in some of our cases -- Diallo sticks out to me -- were really a joke.
@ajvan The facts are definitely different. Here's a way to look at it. I like the terms passive and active.
Wiseman's case was a passive rules violation. Something that involved improper benefits. Same as, for example, Selby or Jackson. Where our guys were treated the same way.
DeSousa was an active rules violation. We pay you as part of recruiting to cause you to play basketball at KU. That always gets a bigger penalty.
Not saying that the explanation is something we like to hear, but that's a way to distinguish. And clearly the NCAA treats those circumstances differently.
... and, of course, he happened to attend college there. Sometimes folks want something to be true because the dislike or disagree with something. That infects all logical discussions on NCAA related matters. The NCAA is the enemy, their rules are stupid, and thus (as with our NCAA issues), it's stupid or wrong to say Penny (or Gassnola in our case) is a booster. Reading the rule, well, that leads to a different conclusion.
He apparently has to have it all paid back by his last game. So, parsing the detail, if he didn't pay the whole thing, the only game he would get excluded from is the NC game because otherwise, how would they know what is his last game? Maybe I read that wrong. It has to be spread over the season, but there is no guideline on how much is paid at a particular time. He could pay $10 here, $20 there, etc.
"According to the NCAA's repayment guidelines, 'Payment may be spread throughout the duration of a student-athlete's eligibility, but must be completed prior to the student-athlete's last regular season date of competition or contest'."
Also, it's kind of funny how the "F" the NCAA stance has somehow resulted in this. Where was the dramatic court involvement to tell the NCAA their business?
@approxinfinity Just playing word association with three point percentages.
Let me counterpoint this just a bit on Enaruna. There's only 64 draft spots and only 32 mean something for guy that can be in that group. Enaruna isn't starting. And while he's been good, he hasn't been great. I really don't think the narrative has changed on him -- except that I see it a year advanced. He needs to work on his shot and get more polished offensively. My view is that he's now a two year player, assuming an upward development track. But I think he's the best player right next to Dotson, long term.
That all said, he could easily rocket higher this season. Assuming the trajectory, I'd target his first start of the season perhaps the Milwaukee game on Dec. 10.
The 3/2 thing is not going to be reliable if either of these remain true 1) Garrett still can't shoot and 2) Agbaji can't hit the broad side of a barn from three. We're paralyzed at the arc. That's death. A big, big key to the 3/2 ... one that I premised my positivity upon ... was the kick out three pointer. Very hard to defend and a great inside out weapon. But we're not close. In fact, I'd give us a strong "F" in that element so far.
Dynamic lineup? Dotson, Moss, Agbaji, Enaruna, DeSousa or Doke. Garrett and DeSousa/Doke off the bench, with Braun grabbing some time.
Not trying to be too negative here, but I'm struggling with McCormack. He can't play with Doke from the early returns. He fumbles the ball around and is disjointed. He has no game rhythm. I think that's important. His "flow" is disruptive on the offensive end. I don't know if I'm explaining that well, but I think one guy can really be disruptive that way. I'm having a tough time with his game.
@BShark Heck, we’ve had Charlie Moore.
How about that Eckrich commercial with the grandma grasping a wiener and throwing it to (presumably) her grandson? I’ve now seen it all.
BShark said:
24/7 ran out and got Jossell ranked
https://247sports.com/player/latrell-jossell-46096517/ ↗
333 in the class, #324 composite.
When I was giving the anti-OAD speech, this was not what I had in mind.
BShark said:
rockchalkwyo said:
Crimsonorblue22 said:
A skinny 7 footer!
I see 2 seven footers on their roster.
Listened to an interview with their coach and he really modeled his approach after Bill. Sounds like they know each other and are friends.
That's awesome, we should have a bunch of open threes ...
@Crimsonorblue22 They weren't giving us a hard time .. the "come on, man" segment is related to things folks do that make you shake your head. They focused on the Monmouth player, with it being a stupid move. Basically, down 55 and you do that, and trash talk afterward? Come on, man.
Riddle me this - each reason to like, guess if you might, the peak reason why, might poke your eye?
In hindsight, Enaruna just shouldn't have chased him -- hands on hips chuckling a bit would have worked nicely.
Or perhaps anice tussle of the player's hair afterword, you know, a demeaning, "great work Georgie" would have been awesome. Might have sparked a brawl, but still awesome.
I just like imagining what would have happened if a KU player did that when we were losing. I like it best imagining a guy like Anrio Adams or LeGerald Vick doing it. The short leash guys.
I know we all like Garrett. But I think Garrett is one of those players that possibly blocks a team from reaching its potential when he plays too many minutes. On a Bill Self run team, Garrett is "pet" like. Meaning he's easy to love because he's smart, defense is great, and has high intangibles.
I see next season and my first, favorite lineup is Thompson, Agbagi, Wilson, Enaruna, DeSousa. All in on the 4/1. Dave instead of DeSousa ok too. Rotate that.
Now, the uncertainty with Wilson makes that a bit grey. Bring Garrett off the bench at the 2-4 spots. Play 20 minutes. Garrett played 26 minutes and was a nothing offensively Friday. But I more focus on the Duke game where, once again, the defense didn't care about him at the three point line. Heck, in that game, he played 36 minutes, shot 38% from two and didn't even take a three.
The consistent production of the 3/2 concept is severely challenged with Garrett on the floor.
Garrett is the kind of player that, when played too much, really limits a team offensively as it stands now.
BeddieKU23 said:
KU eligibility issues- resolved in 6 to 12 months
Nike eligibility issues (including the #1 recruit/potential 2020 1st pick in NBA draft)- resolved in 24 hours.
How accurate will this be?
I think you're way off here. I think it will take them at least 72 hours on Wiseman.:grimacing_face:
@BigBad Dead on correct about the fingers. That picture from 2018 was atrocious. It has improved some. It's something in the link to my prior topic on this in 2018 I was really focused on too. You just can't make shots that way. I love your nerf ball analogy. We had a high vaulted family room when I was a kid so we could hang it pretty high where you'd have to jump to dunk (about normal ceiling height). Made for some really crazy games. Parents didn't like it.
I look at the elbow this way .. if you're a crazy stud and the ball goes in the hoop, do what you're doing. If not, we need to be fundamental. Applies in many sporting endeavors. I golfed one way when I was young and more athletic. I took 15 years off from golf (because of coaching) and could barely even hit the ball doing what I used to do when I started back up a few years ago. Fundamentals have saved me -- things when I was younger I didn't worry about because I could make up for it athletically.
@mayjay It's an interesting thought on the dominant eye thing. The reason I don't think that's the case is that the staff has him at the line with his right foot forward (which is fundamentally sound). If there is a significant dominant eye as you mention, then being square to the target is the better bet when the off eye (left) is dominant for a right handed shooter -- both toes at the stripe. Just assuming the staff would have diagnosed that and made that adjustment. You'll see it in baseball some when some batters really get their head square to the pitchers. It impacts hitters since if your right handed, batting right, your right eye is not in front of you in your stance. There are some players that this really messes with. I've dealt with a lot eye issues at the youth level since many kids don't know they need glasses or that they have vision issues until sports intervenes. It's something hitting coaches talk about too. But you never know what's going on.
When a kid is shooting like this, form wise, it could make him appear blind when he shoots. I can't feel any arc or have much touch shooting with my elbow at 45 degrees, and worse when I move it to my left side as the launch point. Certainly, bad side to side directional control results too (which interesting doesn't seem to be his main struggle, though -- the depth issue you mention).
@Fightsongwriter Saw this last night, and older article on Doke -
https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/01/udoka-azubuike-kansas-center-stats-free-throws-underhand-form-rick-barry-college-basketball ↗
This is seriously crazy.
Me: Doke, put the ball in your right hand. Put the ball to the right of your head. Your hand needs to be directly under the ball. Your right elbow needs to be directly under the ball. Now I need you to just push the ball up directly to the ceiling. Don't touch it with your left hand. No legs or bending.
Doke: That makes no sense. There's no basket on the ceiling.
Me: Just do it please.
Doke: (multiple reps).
Me: Now, make sure the ball is in the right hand so that it is resting your fingers and the pads of your hand, just under the fingers, but is not touching anywhere below that. Your thumb should touch down to the fist knuckle. (showing Doke).
Doke: Kind of like I'm doing now?
Me: Yes, but much different than you were doing before. This is a real good change you've made. Now, shoot to the ceiling 20 more times, elbow pointing at the floor, shoot directly up, don't touch with your left hand. Again, keep the ball to the right of your head, clear vision to the basket.
Doke: This sucks, but ok. (20 reps)
Me: Now, let's incorporate your lower body. You know how you're flexing your knees now? Let's stick with that. 20 more reps, same thing, but add in the lower body.
Doke: Coach Self knows more than you do.
Me: I know, I've been told. I'm a booster now. So if you don't do the 20 reps, I'll say I gave you money. Now do the 20 reps.
Doke: Well, you could hold TJ's jock, but I'll do the reps.
Me: Now, let's go over to the this big window. I've marked off 15 1/2 feet. Now, what I want you to do is use the exact same motion and form, but shoot to the glass. Importantly, we need to pretend that the ball is a rock and you don't want to break the glass, but rather, you just want to scratch the glass. Again, all one handed.
Doke: Sounds dumb. But I'd have to shoot it pretty high to scratch the glass on the way down, wouldn't I?
Me. You would. Soft, too. Let's try some reps.
Doke: What's the garbage can there for?
Me: Oh, that's at 14 1/2 feet. If the ball goes in or hits the garbage can, you run the bleachers.
Doke: More dumbness. What if I don't do this. I like my way. It feels better. This feels really weird.
Me: Then you won't play. Coach Self told me to tell you that. By the way, we're doing this every day for the next month. Enjoy.
I'm not suggesting that this approach would work. But this is really not rocket science.
You'll see below two pictures of Doke shooting free throws. The first image is from January of 2018. The second is from the game last Friday vs. UNCG.
Here's a link to the discussion on January/2018 regarding Doke's free throw shooting.
/topic/6949
We are still witnessing a disaster. So let's not chalk this up to being mental. That may be a component, of course. But when you look at his FUNDAMENTALS THEY ARE TERRIBLE.
Folks talk about golf swings that hold up under pressure. This is "Exhibit A" of a free throw stroke built to fail.
The only real changes from the January/2018 is that the ball is not as far to the left of Doke's head and that the horrid ultra-finger tip release has been corrected. In my prior post, I identified the obvious (right arm) and the not so obvious (the ultra finger tip positioning). The arm has moved close to proper positioning, but far from even near acceptable. The right hand on the ball looks perfect now -- meaning contact points. The hand is still on the side of the ball though.
I also see Doke bending more, which is not captured by the photos.
But seriously, this is a disaster. Doke's left elbow cannot be in that position to shoot anything reliably. His right hand is still horribly positioned on the side of the ball and the left hand is still too flat to the ball. This creates too much pressure with the left hand and lack of control with the right -- that leads to unreliable directional control.
The right elbow needs to be tucked so it's perpendicular to the floor. This should be a non-debatable point between the staff and Doke. It clearly isn't. By permitting Doke to continue to shoot in this manner, the staff is failing him and the team. Doke elbow is near 45 degrees. Just completely unacceptable.
The idea that Doke has been working to improve may be true, but his form continues to be severely flawed. Practicing the wrong form only ingrains the severe flaws. I truly cannot belief our coaching staff permits this.
Udoka.jpg" style="max-width:100%;">
![Doke.1.jpg ↗
I personally think it is just the nature of basketball. Basketball, at all levels, is very prone to "runs" and swings in momentum. I see this happening all over the country on a regular basis. To me, it seems that it always has. Basketball is a hard game to manage with a lead.
@Bosthawk I am committed during our "issues" with the NCAA not to complain/whine/wonder at all about any possible OAD recruiting. I won't. This is an incredible recruiting win. This is an incredibly impressive given the "issues."
From my point of view, my only true satisfaction with a KU season is a national title. With our program, that's how it is with me. We're a blue blood, and we're not a "fallen on hard times" blue blood. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy the ride (as so many used to pound on me about). I do. But when we lose our last game in the tourney, it sucks, and it is a season unfulfilled. Glad to be spoiled.
As for @kjayhawks trade off -- half of our conference titles for two national championships. Yea, that's an easy trade. Not sure the basketball gods would make that trade with us, though. Conference titles should not be the focus. I, for one, am very glad the streak is over. The streak was a very big distraction. Nice to win, of course, pretty cool, but something that grew bigger is scope -- and was a distraction from the real mountain top. The sense of relief of each team reaching that goal, not being the one to break the streak -- I think -- impacted the tourney mindset. The focus. At least some.
This team can win the NC this season. No doubt. I think I post that every season. Blessed to be a KU fan. It's great to always be in the hunt.
Crimsonorblue22 said:
Houston is on espn3 tmrw, I’m anxious to see grimes.
Yea that’s on my list too. Just behind raking the leaves in this ridiculously cold weather and the stomach flu. Well, ok, ahead of the stomach flu. 🤔
I don't think anyone is "consigning" his efforts "to the trash heap."
Well, he can improve. But it isn't cool to do the Rick Barry deal. I wouldn't want to shoot that way either. But it creates a ball that lands very softly on the rim, and is very easy to gauge distance. Either you want to succeed or you don't.
In fairness, maybe the staff tried this and Doke couldn't do it. Kind of doubt it.
Ah, for the days when you can sleep with your monkey on TV but not your wife.
The way to take advantage of our personnel and guard the three point line is a 3-2 zone. Put our big guys in back. It's a natural fit for what we have.
The only three pointer that is difficult to rotate to is the corner three after a skip pass from the opposite wing. I'd take that.
I'll never understand why Self won't open his mind to this, given the obvious fit with our personnel.
I'm totally in on Chris Beard if we needed a replacement. A sleeper? Billy Donovan if he wants to return to college.
@Texas-Hawk-10 Regression after 2 games? I wouldn't declare it official yet. But I think you're right. I think a lot of us saw a silky transition this season. Still time. But the games early on last season with Vick will be tough to top. We were stickin' 80+ on the board like it was nothing. And as much Lawson was an athletic dud, he could score. This team will be one that builds to that, but might never get there. I do see the potential. Enaruna, as @drgnslayr mentioned, is the real deal. Truthfully, next to Dotson, who would you bet on more at the level on this team? He's odds on favorite to be the best player on the team next season, I think. Garrett's better shooting this season and Silvio will come around. We need give Doke space. But defense will be our key .. we just need to score more than the opponent. And that will all relate to how we guard the line. But the regression prediction seems dead on.
Regardless of the court ruling on the restraining order, Memphis had a choice as to whether to play him as is always the case with any player, whether ruled eligible or not. Memphis is still responsible for playing him (to the NCAA). The judge can't force Memphis to play him.
From ESPN, "The NCAA issued a statement Friday night in response to Wiseman's appearance in the game, saying, 'The University of Memphis was notified that James Wiseman is likely ineligible. The university chose to play him and ultimately is responsible for ensuring its student-athletes are eligible to play.' "
Clearly Hardaway was a booster. The issue though, and I think this is important to remember, the NCAA was not made aware of this issue when it made its initial eligibility determination. My guess is that if they were up front about the assistance, it might have been a different discussion.
Take a look, you can see his his left foot roll over his toes at an angle out. That mechanism would seem to indicate more of a foot type injury vs. the ankle. Surgery likely means a small bone or bones. But they are clearly saying the ankle which is really weird looking at it. Crazy freak injury.